Introducing Climb United

I can totally respect the "choosing not to publish" a given route, because of the name assigned to it. 

I cannot respect a publisher that just renames someone else's work and then publishes it anyway.

But I think today's consumers are ready for others to make their decisions for them, so it is what it is.

Cherokee Nuneswrote:

I can totally respect the "choosing not to publish" a given route, because of the name assigned to it. 

I cannot respect a publisher that just renames someone else's work and then publishes it anyway.

But I think today's consumers are ready for others to make their decisions for them, so it is what it is.

It is in part consumers. But I also see in this a significant influence from commercial interests.

Why hasn’t the climbing community made a counter offer to what the publishers are proposing?

Because we aren't a community

Cherokee Nuneswrote:

Because we aren't a community

We are all mostly a bunch of liberals. Compromise should still be in our vocabulary. :-)

Wow. Read all 15 Pages of this thread, and it was well worth my time.  I think the take way is that there are three camps on the issue:

In camp "If You Disagree With Me, You Are Racist", you have JonasMR and Ben Silver (others too, but these two were team MVPs).  They don't really make any valuable points, they just pick apart anyone that dares to disagree with them with condescending comments, snobbery, and virtue signaling.  They can talk down to anyone that apposes them because, in their own minds, they hold the moral high ground.  Obviously, they hold the moral high ground because if you don't agree with them, you're racist, and racists need to be silenced.  I assume they are from Boulder.

In camp "Language is a Nuanced Topic, and Any Limitations on it Warrant Intelligent Discussion", you have Astrid Rey, Franck Vee, Cherekee Nunes, Mark Pilate, Old lady H, and many others.  Most of the comments coming from this group are well reasoned, and in good faith.  Some of the comments are for changes, and some of the comments are for supporting tradition, but the vast majority of comments are not cemented on either side of the topic.  There's not a lot of fist shaking and name calling coming from this group... the adults in the room, if you will.

In camp "I'm Writing This From My Compound", you have don'tchuffonme and K Dinneen.  Chill the fuck out!  The FBI is not kicking down your door any time soon.  Well, at least over route names, they are not...

As a community, we should disregard the opinions of the fringes.  Not because they don't have a right to voice their opinions (they certainly do), but because their view will never be changed.  They are so entrenched in their position, that they will never be satisfied by anything short of full compliance to their view point.  (Somehow, I think someone in camp "If You Disagree With Me, You Are Racist", will interpret those last three sentences as defending the use of the N-word).

On one hand, the fringes will have a "Naughty List" of words that is always growing, and never shrinking.  (Notice there's not a "body shaming" category yet?  Going to be a lot of "Unnamed Offwidth #4's out there.  Somehow, "cracker", "white devil", "honkey", "white trash", etc hasn't been added.  That's got to be hurting someone, gotta add em!  Oh Shit, what about the die-hard atheists'?  Better remove any name with a religious connotation.  You know, gun violence kills X amount of people every year.  We should ban any name that has to do with guns...or bombs...or knives...or wars.  Lots of "problematic" periods in History!  Ok, no names from the Colonial Period.  Oh man, the Blue Lives Matter crew is going to be PISSED!!  Ok, no "pig", "cop-killer", "fuck-12", etc.... It's just endless, and if you think it's not, please keep in mind that we already have the lead singer to The Rolling Stones and a country in Africa on "The List", and that's the baseline we are starting from).

On the other hand, the fringes would have routes containing the N-word happily printed in the latest 2021 guide book.

Kevin Rwrote:

Wow. Read all 15 Pages of this thread, and it was well worth my time.  I think the take way is that there are three camps on the issue:

In camp "If You Disagree With Me, You Are Racist", you have JonasMR and Ben Silver (others too, but these two were team MVPs).  They don't really make any valuable points, they just pick apart anyone that dares to disagree with them with condescending comments, snobbery, and virtue signaling.  They can talk down to anyone that apposes them because, in their own minds, they hold the moral high ground.  Obviously, they hold the moral high ground because if you don't agree with them, you're racist, and racists need to be silenced.  I assume they are from Boulder.

In camp "Language is a Nuanced Topic, and Any Limitations on it Warrant Intelligent Discussion", you have Astrid Rey, Franck Vee, Cherekee Nunes, Mark Pilate, Old lady H, and many others.  Most of the comments coming from this group are well reasoned, and in good faith.  Some of the comments are for changes, and some of the comments are for supporting tradition, but the vast majority of comments are not cemented on either side of the topic.  There's not a lot of fist shaking and name calling coming from this group... the adults in the room, if you will.

In camp "I'm Writing This From My Compound", you have don'tchuffonme and K Dinneen.  Chill the fuck out!  The FBI is not kicking down your door any time soon.  Well, at least over route names, they are not...

As a community, we should disregard the opinions of the fringes.  Not because they don't have a right to voice their opinions (they certainly do), but because their view will never be changed.  They are so entrenched in their position, that they will never be satisfied by anything short of full compliance to their view point.  (Somehow, I think someone in camp "If You Disagree With Me, You Are Racist", will interpret those last three sentences as defending the use of the N-word).

On one hand, the fringes will have a "Naughty List" of words that is always growing, and never shrinking.  (Notice there's not a "body shaming" category yet?  Going to be a lot of "Unnamed Offwidth #4's out there.  Somehow, "cracker", "white devil", "honkey", "white trash", etc hasn't been added.  That's got to be hurting someone, gotta add em!  Oh Shit, what about the die-hard atheists'?  Better remove any name with a religious connotation.  You know, gun violence kills X amount of people every year.  We should ban any name that has to do with guns...or bombs...or knives...or wars.  Lots of "problematic" periods in History!  Ok, no names from the Colonial Period.  Oh man, the Blue Lives Matter crew is going to be PISSED!!  Ok, no "pig", "cop-killer", "fuck-12", etc.... It's just endless, and if you think it's not, please keep in mind that we already have the lead singer to The Rolling Stones and a country in Africa on "The List", and that's the baseline we are starting from).

On the other hand, the fringes would have routes containing the N-word happily printed in the latest 2021 guide book.

That’s a fair assessment 

Kevin Rwrote:

On one hand, the fringes will have a "Naughty List" of words that is always growing, and never shrinking.  

But there is already a list. Does that put AAC and Climb United on the fringes?

Astrid Reywrote:

But there is already a list. Does that put AAC and Climb United on the fringes?

Good question.  Perhaps not now.  Right now, I think they are making a good faith attempt to be more inclusive.  Unfortunately, the way political and cultural division is going, the fringe left, and fringe right will just keep adding to the list.  What if the next "guardian of the list", isn't much of a guardian and is easily swayed by any convincing email to add "just one more naughty word".  Extrapolate the list out 30 years, and I'm guessing it's a really long list.  

Astrid Reywrote:

But there is already a list. Does that put AAC and Climb United on the fringes?

I think the point is that, for the hollier-than-thou group, there's little barrier to entry as to what is considered offensive. The criteria is "someone claims to be offended". There's not much discussion to be had, there's no further questionning needed - the bubble must be protected. Thus the list grows, and necessarily by the laws of big numbers, ridiculous things creep into it. But thatt doesn't matter because someone, somewhere, is no more offended by the ridiculous thing.

It's not really the existence of a list that's the issue - it's the dumb approach as to what qualifies or not to be on it. Whether or not the ACC's fit the "fringes criteria" largely depends how they manage theirs.

EDIT: see Rod above too. Pretty agree with that perspective.

Greg Daviswrote:

Before pitchforks are brought out, it is guidelines for PUBLISHERS - NOT for route developers. You can continue making routes whatever names you want, but a publisher might say "route 23" instead of "Dickbutts AssBlaster Offwidth."

Kevin Rwrote:

Wow. Read all 15 Pages of this thread, and it was well worth my time.  I think the take way is that there are three camps on the issue:

In camp "If You Disagree With Me, You Are Racist", you have JonasMR and Ben Silver (others too, but these two were team MVPs).  They don't really make any valuable points, they just pick apart anyone that dares to disagree with them with condescending comments, snobbery, and virtue signaling.  They can talk down to anyone that apposes them because, in their own minds, they hold the moral high ground.  Obviously, they hold the moral high ground because if you don't agree with them, you're racist, and racists need to be silenced.  I assume they are from Boulder.

Wow, all that reading, and you didn't understand anything I wrote? Come on man, you can do better than that.

For Jay:

What you wrote was drivel. So I didn't read it, but I'm going to assume you said you want to have sex with Big Bird. That's gross, and you should feel gross.

• JonasMRwrote:

Wow, all that reading, and you didn't understand anything I wrote? Come on man, you can do better than that.

What you wrote is a bunch of dribble.. come on man, you can do better!.

Send $100 to PayPal.me/climbfairview and I’ll name a route anything you want 

Kevin Rwrote:

Wow. Read all 15 Pages of this thread, and it was well worth my time.  I think the take way is that there are three camps on the issue:

In camp "If You Disagree With Me, You Are Racist", you have JonasMR and Ben Silver (others too, but these two were team MVPs).  They don't really make any valuable points, they just pick apart anyone that dares to disagree with them with condescending comments, snobbery, and virtue signaling.  They can talk down to anyone that apposes them because, in their own minds, they hold the moral high ground.  Obviously, they hold the moral high ground because if you don't agree with them, you're racist, and racists need to be silenced.  I assume they are from Boulder.

In camp "Language is a Nuanced Topic, and Any Limitations on it Warrant Intelligent Discussion", you have Astrid Rey, Franck Vee, Cherekee Nunes, Mark Pilate, Old lady H, and many others.  Most of the comments coming from this group are well reasoned, and in good faith.  Some of the comments are for changes, and some of the comments are for supporting tradition, but the vast majority of comments are not cemented on either side of the topic.  There's not a lot of fist shaking and name calling coming from this group... the adults in the room, if you will.

In camp "I'm Writing This From My Compound", you have don'tchuffonme and K Dinneen.  Chill the fuck out!  The FBI is not kicking down your door any time soon.  Well, at least over route names, they are not...

As a community, we should disregard the opinions of the fringes.  Not because they don't have a right to voice their opinions (they certainly do), but because their view will never be changed.  They are so entrenched in their position, that they will never be satisfied by anything short of full compliance to their view point.  (Somehow, I think someone in camp "If You Disagree With Me, You Are Racist", will interpret those last three sentences as defending the use of the N-word).

On one hand, the fringes will have a "Naughty List" of words that is always growing, and never shrinking.  (Notice there's not a "body shaming" category yet?  Going to be a lot of "Unnamed Offwidth #4's out there.  Somehow, "cracker", "white devil", "honkey", "white trash", etc hasn't been added.  That's got to be hurting someone, gotta add em!  Oh Shit, what about the die-hard atheists'?  Better remove any name with a religious connotation.  You know, gun violence kills X amount of people every year.  We should ban any name that has to do with guns...or bombs...or knives...or wars.  Lots of "problematic" periods in History!  Ok, no names from the Colonial Period.  Oh man, the Blue Lives Matter crew is going to be PISSED!!  Ok, no "pig", "cop-killer", "fuck-12", etc.... It's just endless, and if you think it's not, please keep in mind that we already have the lead singer to The Rolling Stones and a country in Africa on "The List", and that's the baseline we are starting from).

On the other hand, the fringes would have routes containing the N-word happily printed in the latest 2021 guide book.

The only people who I have implied are racist are the ones who fall into your last piece. They are literally arguing for white people to be able to use the N word.

Ben Silverwrote:

The only people who I have implied are racist are the ones who fall into your last piece. They are literally arguing for white people to be able to use the N word.

Perhaps you should carry a similar exercise to Rod's. You may not come accross the way you think your are, or intent to. I don't recall all your posts, but you come accross as one of the more passionate sjw in this thread, from my perspective.

EDIT (post limit) Ben:

Look, it mostly depends why you're here I guess. I did skim the topic for your posts. They're not all that bad. But I'm sure that if anything close to a "neutral observer" were to read the topic (kinda like Rod did I guess), he would see mostly the same thing I'm seeing. Which means someone who seems to be intervening here mostly to make noise for his position, somewhat preaching to the choir and not necessarily doing a whole lot more than making those who already agree with him anyways think "haha, yeah, that's right bro".

That may be fine, if that's why you here. But then your reaction to you being associated to the fringes on this topic makes me think it isn't.

Oh I see where I messed up replying to you, Franck.

Ben Silverwrote:

Here's the thing: it's not that intent doesn't matter. You aren't being canceled for a route name that you did not intend as offensive. It's about what you do once you're told by a marginalized group that it IS offensive. If you say "oh shoot, I'm sorry I didn't realize that, let's change it," no one is going to jump down your throat.

How very SJW of me. Sorry I hurt your feelings.

Kevin Rwrote:

Wow. Read all 15 Pages of this thread, and it was well worth my time.  I think the take way is that there are three camps on the issue:

In camp "If You Disagree With Me, You Are Racist", you have JonasMR and Ben Silver (others too, but these two were team MVPs).  They don't really make any valuable points, they just pick apart anyone that dares to disagree with them with condescending comments, snobbery, and virtue signaling.  They can talk down to anyone that apposes them because, in their own minds, they hold the moral high ground.  Obviously, they hold the moral high ground because if you don't agree with them, you're racist, and racists need to be silenced.  I assume they are from Boulder.

In camp "Language is a Nuanced Topic, and Any Limitations on it Warrant Intelligent Discussion", you have Astrid Rey, Franck Vee, Cherekee Nunes, Mark Pilate, Old lady H, and many others.  Most of the comments coming from this group are well reasoned, and in good faith.  Some of the comments are for changes, and some of the comments are for supporting tradition, but the vast majority of comments are not cemented on either side of the topic.  There's not a lot of fist shaking and name calling coming from this group... the adults in the room, if you will.

In camp "I'm Writing This From My Compound", you have don'tchuffonme and K Dinneen.  Chill the fuck out!  The FBI is not kicking down your door any time soon.  Well, at least over route names, they are not...

As a community, we should disregard the opinions of the fringes.  Not because they don't have a right to voice their opinions (they certainly do), but because their view will never be changed.  They are so entrenched in their position, that they will never be satisfied by anything short of full compliance to their view point.  (Somehow, I think someone in camp "If You Disagree With Me, You Are Racist", will interpret those last three sentences as defending the use of the N-word).

On one hand, the fringes will have a "Naughty List" of words that is always growing, and never shrinking.  (Notice there's not a "body shaming" category yet?  Going to be a lot of "Unnamed Offwidth #4's out there.  Somehow, "cracker", "white devil", "honkey", "white trash", etc hasn't been added.  That's got to be hurting someone, gotta add em!  Oh Shit, what about the die-hard atheists'?  Better remove any name with a religious connotation.  You know, gun violence kills X amount of people every year.  We should ban any name that has to do with guns...or bombs...or knives...or wars.  Lots of "problematic" periods in History!  Ok, no names from the Colonial Period.  Oh man, the Blue Lives Matter crew is going to be PISSED!!  Ok, no "pig", "cop-killer", "fuck-12", etc.... It's just endless, and if you think it's not, please keep in mind that we already have the lead singer to The Rolling Stones and a country in Africa on "The List", and that's the baseline we are starting from).

On the other hand, the fringes would have routes containing the N-word happily printed in the latest 2021 guide book.

I disagree with your comments about disregarding the fringes. That's marginalization, literally. If you don't believe in supporting the speech of everyone? Then it is no longer free speech.

However.

Just because most in my synagogue would be willing to go to jail to support the Aryan nations right to parade down the street in front of the Synagogue? 

Doesn't mean their cause has any support from my community, the people they hate.

And? 

MP used to get pretty angry at me, in my noobness, bitd. Some still do, most likely.

Their mistake?

Confusing listening (I always listen) and obedience (that isn't a given), lol!

I have the "right" to be wrong. 

So long as it's not burning a cross on your lawn, eh?

Best, Helen

Oh, and adulthood is overrated.

People who don't agree with Climb United's list: What routes are you defending? Using the list of words that Climb United provided, what route would be unfairly targeted?

The only route I have seen provided so far, not that anyone other than the poster that provided it would defend it, is Rock Retard. That is a pretty hard name to defend. 

I don't buy the slippery slope argument that soon any route that could ever offend someone will be changed, its literally a logical fallacy.

M Awrote:

People who don't agree with Climb United's list: What routes are you defending? Using the list of words that Climb United provided, what route would be unfairly targeted?

The only route I have seen provided so far, not that anyone other than the poster that provided it would defend it, is Rock Retard. That is a pretty hard name to defend. 

I don't buy the slippery slope argument that soon any route that could ever offend someone will be changed, its literally a logical fallacy.

Someone already mentioned Mick Jagger. I know common sense says that name is not offensive but there would need to be a process that uses that common sense.

The word "flip" is considered to be derogatory to some people from my culture. It is somewhat like our N-word since we use it ourselves in a playful way but it can be awkward when non Filipinos use it. Some do find it offensive although it doesn't bother me personally. The word is not on the list but I can foresee that it will be eventually. There are quite a few Asian slurs that aren't on the list but that is how it usually goes. Now should the word "flip" be on the list since some people are offended by it, and then should we ban every climbing name with the word in it?

caughtinside wrote:

As a counterexample - one only has to look at the routes [redacted] on mountain project that qualify as "offensive" yet use none of the words on that list.  

The first couple that spring to mind: Babes in Thailand on Tonsai, a historical reference, presumably upsetting because it's sexist? The Racist at the New, because the word Racist is upsetting, and Happiness in Slavery at Tensleep, the name of a Nine Inch Nails song, presumably because a reference to slavery is upsetting.  Those are just some examples of the slippery slope of offensive route names, none of which use any words on the Climb United list. 

Isn't this an argument that the AAC list/criteria are better than the seemingly elusive standards on MP? I don't think there was ever an adequate explanation about Babes in Thailand. And I certainly don't think it would be blocked from publication under the AAC standards.

Similarly, it's not clear that The Racist or Happiness in Slavery would qualify. Here's what they say:

"We must remain highly objective in our review and decision-making process.  As a general agreement, we will think critically of words used in the context of: ethnicity, nationality, sexual identity, gender identity, and ability.

References to historical and current events that are/were meant to oppress individuals and groups must be considered in context and we must remain objective in our review and decision-making process."

It seems pretty clear that a lot of people commenting in this thread haven't actually read the (draft) guidelines. That also means your input isn't going to be very constructive for any finalized version.

You’d almost think routes are anything more than glorified nature trails reading this continual self-important drivel, lol!

Call them what you want. Call them nothing at all. It’s a chunk of stone that will be unnamed for the overwhelming majority of its existence.