Ethics of a FA and retro bolting

Pino Pepinowrote:

When I was in the US,  my impression was that people valued self-reliance and individual responsibility a lot in many areas of life. It's a bit weird to see that this position is reversed in climbing. 

It used to be a hallmark of the climbing community. 

A lot of people here lost their accounts questioning what was responsible for such fragility taking over, because all evidence points to the influx of Social Justice, Feminism and CRT in our educational system. 

And to criticize any of those paradigms meant you got targeted. The march towards Collectivism has adopted a guerilla tactic of silencing the non compliant.

Claudine Longetwrote:

It used to be a hallmark of the climbing community. 

A lot of people here lost their accounts questioning what was responsible for such fragility taking over, because all evidence points to the influx of Social Justice, Feminism and CRT in our educational system. 

And to criticize any of those paradigms meant you got targeted. The march towards Collectivism has adopted a guerilla tactic of silencing the non compliant.

lol what? i can't hear you over that ax you're grinding

Claudine Longetwrote:

The march towards Collectivism has adopted a guerilla tactic of silencing the non compliant.

Well they've learned from years of being subjected to real instead of perceived persecutions, so is it really a surprise that maybe it's finally catching up with you?

JonasMRwrote:

we

Speak for yourself please. Thanks

Salamanizer Skiwrote:

That used to be the case. Not so much these days. Look at who we just elected to ru(i)n the country!

What part of the previous administration echoed the sentiments of individual responsibility and self reliance?

Genuinely curious.

B Pwrote:

What part of the previous administration echoed the sentiments of individual responsibility and self reliance?

Genuinely curious.

Open your eyes and answer your own question. 

Salamanizer Skiwrote:

Open your eyes and answer your own question. 

An answer that says all you want to do is throw political bricks and not engage in any kind of substantive discussion.

Finally! No more kinda pretending that people have their own personal opinions about retro bolting. Just the naked red vs blue BS that was fueling a lot of 'personal opinions' in the first place. Way to get this thread to it's natural end!

Let me just add that the real question we should be asking is whether the pedophile Republicans are better than the witness-silencing Democrats. This is an important question, guys!

Ryan Never climbs wrote:

Is retro bolting ego driven? 

What human activity isn’t?

However, you don’t get a big ol hunk of that FA glory pie people seem to want.

The bipolar political lenses overlaid onto this discussion makes for a completely idiotic conversation. Kinda makes you realize how that happens with any issue...

“What do you think of retro bolting?”

“FERKIN BIDEN!!!!”

lol!

Marc801 Cwrote:

An answer that says all you want to do is throw political bricks and not engage in any kind of substantive discussion.

The substantive discussion was finished by page three. After that it’s just the same ol perpetual drivel from you trolls. 

Salamanizer Skiwrote:

The substantive discussion was finished by page three. After that it’s just the same ol perpetual drivel from you trolls. 

Yes, and it transitioned into political ground, in part fueled by your posts. It is the substantive political discussion that you're evading.

Sure thing bud...

My answer was relevant to the question asked. I had no intention for the highly polititard trolls to run with it. My bad!

Salamanizer Skiwrote:

Sure thing bud...

Really, what is wrong with you? There wasn’t a scintilla of political rhetoric in this thread until you  and the Pinhead piped in. 

If it’s a ground up FA, done on lead, in stance. don’t touch it.  It’s now a piece of history and climbing culture even if you don’t like it  

if it’s rap bolted with run outs, dumb. Talk to the FA and see about fixing it if you are so bent.

or, deal with the fact that climbing is dangerous and sometimes run out and jog always safe. 

Todd Berlier wrote:

what seems crazy to me is that i never went thru an Oasis phase, until now.  ive been binging on youtube videos of interviews of the gallagher brothers. some real gold. as a newer ukulele player learning the strunming pattern for wonderwall has been challenging for me.

I think you're posting on the wrong site.

Listening to Oasis is like doing a low V0 shirtless with a beanie and screaming thru the crux. 

Mark Pilatewrote:

Listening to Oasis is like doing a low V0 shirtless with a beanie and screaming thru the crux. 

I always thought hearing* Oasis was a form of punishment.

*: I mean, no one actually listens to Oasis, do they?

hey bro, oasis f**king rocks! plus it gives me an excuse to flash my sick treble clef tattoo at the ladies to let them know these fingers are good for more than flashing your proj

Dang, Oasis on a ukulele is definitely not the FA I want.

Pino Pepinowrote:

8 pages in may be a bit late, but maybe it would help if people stopped equating bolted 'sport' climbing with safe. Safety is a matter of degrees. Even in well-bolted areas, if you blow any of the first three clips from a less than optimal stance, there is a fair chance of decking.

All of the limestone areas around here are bolted and considered sport climbing. Yet in many of them you can seriously injure yourself if you slip before the first bolt or blow a clip low down. This typically isn't due to somebody's ego, but because rock quality, holds and clipping stances dictate certain positions. It's pointless to put bolts in bad rock or in positions that are at odds with the route and flow of climbing. People whose abilities are within a reasonable range are able to safely get up and climb those routes. Those whose abilities aren't are expected to be smart enough to choose routes that are a better match, which generally works out.

Many areas with harder climbs have few if any routes below 10a, so there is some natural separation In bolting styles. People push their grades within ability ranges that are sensible. In the mountains, there are plenty of plaisir routes which have been opened as such or retro bolted and outfitted with new stainless hardware in agreement with the person who fa'ed them. I am not aware of any calls of retro bolting the mental testpieces that remain, and there are still people who seek them out as valued prizes. 

When I was in the US,  my impression was that people valued self-reliance and individual responsibility a lot in many areas of life. It's a bit weird to see that this position is reversed in climbing. Maybe it's just because of a worse ratio of rock to people.

I think you're missing a bit of the point of this discussion, though. Here in Northern California a lot of our routes are older. Indian Rock in Sanborn Skyline across from Castle Rock is a great example. From left to right you have South Face, 5.8, 2 bolts; Puckered Starfish, .10a, 2 bolts. Donkey Dong, 11c, 5 bolts. 

You know which climbs get not just climbed the most, but led the most? Not the 11+. The 5.8 is bolted OK, but the 10a really needs a lower first bolt. I have first-hand seen some super sketchy leads with people almost decking onto an awful landing before the first bolt. 

Whose routes are these? Because if the routes belong to everyone, then the way Puckered Starfish is bolted is incredibly dumb and bad. If it's a warmup for 5.11 climbers than it's fine, but if it's a climb for 5.10 leaders then it's pretty fucking awful. It's hard to even reach the first bolt with a stick clip. The people who value this route the most are going to be people for whom leading 5.10 is an exciting proposition. If this is the FA's route then we can't do anything. If this route is a public resource then we need to examine who its users are and how we can best serve their needs.

Note that this does NOT mean that runouts shouldn't exist, or that adventure climbs need to be retrobolted to turn them into sport climbs. People like those things and you will sometimes have conflicting desires of climbers, and the climbers who want the safest thing shouldn't always win. But if you have a sport crag with safe 11s and 12s and all the 10s and below are bolted awfully and those are the climbs that get the most traffic then you've created a public resource that is shit at serving the wants and needs of the primary users. This is exactly the state of sport climbing in much of Northern California. 

I think it's also especially important to point out that the routes that are bolted the most dangerously are also the ones that are climbed by inexperienced leaders who are unable to make good safety judgements and who often have inexperienced belayers who aren't very good yet at keeping the leader safe. 

Viewing the FA as sacred and untouchable is dumb. Unless they own the land what they have created is a public resource. It isn't their rock, we are all the stewards, and we need to make judgements about routes and how they ought to be based on who climbs them. A 5.10 with loads of no fall zones that's a warmup at an area with a bunch of 5.12s sounds great. If it's a never ending conga line of tech bro gym climbers with few outdoor leads (as is the case with all moderates in the Castle Rock area) then keeping a route bolted that way is the community being poor stewards of public resources in my opinion.