New and Experienced Climbers Over 50 #15

I am rather annoyed at the gritstone Britts. A bunch of stupid rules that they came up with to squeeze the most danger out of their little rocks. The problem being that due to a few prominent folks influenced by that nonsense many of those silly rulze were imposed appon us here in the North East. 

Kristian Solemwrote:

I'm with Jan. There was nothing about "privilege" or any other such business going on. Climbers made sacrifices to do it. As I said above, I tossed a marriage and a lot else. That's not privilege, it's a drive that borders on insanity. Guy posted that shot of Seam Stress. I'm doing hard .12 right there, and if I peel my belayer will have to run like a son-of-bitch or I deck. 

But enough drama. A history of JT climbing must be done as a book. That way you can tell it like it was. Cole, Guy, Jan, Guy and I can give you a lot, and point you in the right directions, but you'll need to interview Fidelman, Largo, the list goes on. Perhaps introductions can be made. But promise me you won't give in the woke/cancel culture idiocy.

Kristian, 

I cannot think of anyone less qualified to write such a book than me.  I was not there.  I don't know a single one of you climbers, except what you've so generously shared here.  What I have in the plus column is I can organize and I can write.  But in the negatives... I don't know if I could EVER capture the flavor of those times.  Every story that you cannot share here is really what I'd be after.  

Yet, as I continue to wander around this Park and ask 'what's that?"... poke around new places and find out they're old... and especially when I belly up to a hard route (for me) and can not believe anyone ever climbed anything harder... the book idea comes back.  

Sam.  I wasn't just responding to your comments but to the comments of others here in town... what I see the younger generation here in Josh doing... gosh. I can't even write about this. I am just sad about the loss of trust and good will.  And also the loss of history.  I'm having my own struggle right now... I walked into our local book/gift store last week and spent an hour browsing.  Every book, card, painting and gift was placed there for my enlightenment... my education... by section.  Every kind of self-help book, every kind of women's book, racial equality book, raising awareness books.  Perhaps I just spent too many years inundated with self-help, all good, but now I just want to 'be' for awhile.  I don't see a lot of joy these days.  

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I still don't know the scale of climbing in this country.  I know it's growing.  But in my climbing gym in Sacramento, I was told that of the 600 members, less than 5% had ever been outdoors to climb.  And of those, how many made a life of it?  So, outside of Free Solo, how many people know or care about climbing?  (real question)

The public knows about baseball and kids grow up collecting baseball cards.  What about Kristian's Seam Stress?  That should be a card.  :-)   

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So... does anyone know about or remember a route called 7th Heaven?  

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Lastly.. random topics, I guess.  Another thing I didn't expect when I moved here was that I would immediately want to play, and go weak in the knees at the suggestion of any real work.  I had planned to 'semi-retire' and allow my business up in Sacramento to continue running until it just petered out.  I thought I would be making trips back and forth.  I thought I would continue to be a grandmother, a mom, and at least TRY to do some work from here now and then.  I try to be available for phone calls... the last real discussion I had with my daughter was when my phone unaccountably rang at the top of Ryan's Mountain and I answered it.  "Mom, where are you?"  Out of breath, hiking in a windstorm... laughing.  

It feels like they let the cow out of the barn... and I can't go back.  Is this how anyone here experiences retirement?  I wasn't warned. 

The work I need to do is minimal, and yet I can't do it.  I wake up in the morning with new plans, new places to roam, or climb... usually with a big smile, and whatever work there was just sits and now it's piled high.  I have never been so irresponsible.  It does make me wonder if the decades of nose-to-the-grindstone work, and the struggles of raising four kids, just finally hit a bursting point.    

Lori Milaswrote:

I cannot think of anyone less qualified to write such a book than me.  I was not there.  I don't know a single one of you climbers, except what you've so generously shared here.  What I have in the plus column is I can organize and I can write.  But in the negatives... I don't know if I could EVER capture the flavor of those times.  Every story that you cannot share here is really what I'd be after.  

I would guess most history books were written by people who "weren't there" :)

Maybe you don't need to "capture" the flavor as much as record/re-tell stories from people who were there.  Then let the stories speak for themselves.

Jan Mcwrote:

In most respects it is pretty hard to think of the regulars at Josh as privileged when most were dirt bag climbers living out of their cars at least part of the time and devoting their entire beings into something that has no meaning to anyone else.  Dedicated, driven, even insane are some of the words that make a lot more sense.

Just a guess, but I'm thinking not too many of us were born to the House of Windsor, or a multi-millionaire clan.  Just because one has fair skin does not make one privileged.  

Privilege in the context being discussed here goes far deeper than finances/economics. Someone earlier in this thread - when the original conversation began - said it really well. Privilege has to do with the ability to participate without fear of being harassed, profiled, etc due to personal characteristics. I have very little fear of being pulled over by police because of my privilege - and yes, it is because I am a White woman- my friends of color have very different experiences and worries. People of color may not have had the same experiences ‘dirt bagging’ as young white men in those days - or today. I’m sorry, but there is inherent privilege that accompanies being White. Acknowledging that is important - not saying there needs to be apologies or guilt, but simple awareness goes a long way. 

ErikaNWwrote:

Privilege in the context being discussed here goes far deeper than finances/economics. Someone earlier in this thread - when the original conversation began - said it really well. Privilege has to do with the ability to participate without fear of being harassed, profiled, etc due to personal characteristics. I have very little fear of being pulled over by police because of my privilege - and yes, it is because I am a White woman- my friends of color have very different experiences and worries. People of color may not have had the same experiences ‘dirt bagging’ as young white men in those days - or today. I’m sorry, but there is inherent privilege that accompanies being White. Acknowledging that is important - not saying there needs to be apologies or guilt, but simple awareness goes a long way. 

Being white in ~1970 did not totally exclude one from being profiled and harassed.    If you had the hippy look you were quite likely to be subjected to those things.  Especially in a National Park (JTree was from from a national Park in 1970 but there was the whole 29 Palms military presence).  I'm not suggesting that the problems were anything on par with what a POC might have experienced then or will today.  But the long hairs were definitely targeted.

ErikaNWwrote:

Privilege in the context being discussed here goes far deeper than finances/economics. Someone earlier in this thread - when the original conversation began - said it really well. Privilege has to do with the ability to participate without fear of being harassed, profiled, etc due to personal characteristics. I have very little fear of being pulled over by police because of my privilege - and yes, it is because I am a White woman- my friends of color have very different experiences and worries. People of color may not have had the same experiences ‘dirt bagging’ as young white men in those days - or today. I’m sorry, but there is inherent privilege that accompanies being White. Acknowledging that is important - not saying there needs to be apologies or guilt, but simple awareness goes a long way. 

Disagree.  I've had a number of police "encounters" with police, the last one in the Red Rock campground with a BLM officer with rapid reload clips on his gun belt. My opinion is that there are police officers  (a minority of them)  who will hassle anyone they can, regardless of race, economic status, etc.  

Think about the homeless, some white, some other skin tones.  Bet none of them think they are (or more importantly are) privileged.

Idaho Bobwrote:

Disagree.  I've had a number of police "encounters" with police, the last one in the Red Rock campground with a BLM officer with rapid reload clips on his gun belt. My opinion is that there are police officers  (a minority of them)  who will hassle anyone they can, regardless of race, economic status, etc.  

Think about the homeless, some white, some other skin tones.  Bet none of them think they are (or more importantly are) privileged.

I would love to see some statistics on the skin color and ethnicity of drivers pulled over for minor violations like a dangling air freshener or a broken tail light. (Yes, it used to happen to white hippies a lot and may still be the practice on the Nebraska side of the Colorado-Nebraska state line.)

Edit to add: I don't buy the "few bad apples" explanation.

There's a  massive difference between dirtbagging by choice  when you have an education and generational wealth to fall back on  and  being  homeless because you actually have no  resources to change that situation.  Most of the educated  dirt bag  climbers are one  phone call away from  bailing on their project and re entering  society as a slave to the corporate system... 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

There's a  massive difference between dirtbagging by choice  when you have an education and generational wealth to fall back on  and  being  homeless because you actually have no  resources to change that situation.  Most of the educated  dirt bag  climbers are one  phone call away from  bailing on their project and re entering  society as a slave to the corporate system... 

The "dirtbag" climbing culture wasn't binary, one extreme or the other. Sure, there were a few who were, as you say, a phone call away... There were also full on homeless climbers. Chongo's come to mind. But most climbers were somewhere in a gray area between the extremes. There were a lot of pretty marginal people wintering in Josh, and migrating to the Valley for the summer. They lived on the edge, and at the same time set new standards for climbing time and time again. 

Gym heart rate experiment:

I remembered to wear my apple watch to the gym today. A scary thing happened on the drive there!  We were in the lane left to the left of the far right lane and there was a gardener's pickup truck next to us.  It was towing a open trailer/cart loaded with gardening equipment like lawnmowers.  Suddenly the trailer hitch failed and the cart went careening and flipping into the concrete barrier.  Thank God no one was close behind the truck, they would have been creamed.  I could feel a big surge of adrenaline and I checked my heart rate - 108.

At the gym,  I did 4 overhanging routes (5.9, 5.9, 10c, 11a) and my heart rate rose to 91, 105, 104, 93.  The 5.11 was the last one but not the highest heart rate.  It was steep but not as overhanging/dynamic movement as the middle two, which both went over roofs.  So the raise in heart rate seems to relate to the actual aerobic need, not the strength component required.

After three face routes, I switched to crack routes for the next three routes, so I had to take the watch off.  I started on this one, which I hate, the size is about 3.75 inches, kind of big for me.  I inchworm my way up this with a combo of fist and forearm jams.  It's very physical for me and I could tell my heart rate was at it's peak doing this one, probably about 115.

To put the heart rate data in perspective, my max heart rate when I'm doing treadmill or stairmaster is usually 115-125.  I don't do too much exercise that is really aerobic because it tend to be too hard on my lower back.  Hiking uphill with a pack full of climbing gear, it can get up to 140.  At that point, my heart starts to have a hard time keeping up with the aerobic demand, because I have a mitral valve prolapse.  If I push too hard, I can put myself into arrythmia (very rapid, very shallow beats).  I'm very sensitive to the telltale feelings that are leading up to that, and I know just to slow down before I trigger it.   All my climbing partners know I'm world's the slowest uphill walker.  That's actually why I bought the apple watch, to wear at night occasionally to see if I was going into arrhythmia at night.  So in conclusion, the climbing isn't anywhere near as aerobic for me as typical hiking.

A heart rate monitor taught me the folly of my ways when hiking. I was pushing too hard on the steep ups, and slacking on the easy ground. When I fixed that I started covering more terrain in less time with less overall effort.

I just spent the day climbing despite not feeling well and I’m glad I stuck it out.  Every day lately has been full of new information, something new to learn.  For certain I’m seeing where thoughts makes a huge difference: knowing my feet will stick on slab, etc.  But I’ve hit a strength and endurance wall. I’m good for a couple of serious routes, beyond that my muscles give out on crux moves.  I may have a route worked out in my head but can’t actually finish it.

Gaining fitness, strength and technique is just taking A LOT of time and patience.  It’s painfully slow, and I know there’s a ceiling somewhere. Bit by bit...

Idaho Bobwrote:

Disagree.  I've had a number of police "encounters" with police, the last one in the Red Rock campground with a BLM officer with rapid reload clips on his gun belt. My opinion is that there are police officers  (a minority of them)  who will hassle anyone they can, regardless of race, economic status, etc.  

Think about the homeless, some white, some other skin tones.  Bet none of them think they are (or more importantly are) privileged.

Reading your post, brought Claude Dallas to mind.

Dunno if you were in Idaho when the Fish & Game guys were shot, but think about being that lone BLM dude, instead of being you. Public land LEO is a tough job, imo.

Doing garden, yard and house stuff ahead of the climbing trips  First trip is two weeks from Friday, and the big COR trip is only ten weeks! 

Best, H.

Reading Joe Fitch's  and Robbins books, Glen Dennys , Steck and Roper etc. most of those guys lived on the edge of poverty by choice. They were very resourceful, motivated, highly intelligent, educated individuals who likely had family to fall back on in a real emergency.  They were privledged in the fact that they had the luxury of choosing to  put all of their energy and resources into climbing . Many folks are in a place where they have traveled thousands of miles, crossed borders on the sly to work jobs that american citizens are not willing to perform in order to survive and feed their families.  Pretty certain that being a climbing bum is a privledge in of itself ;)  Not saying that times might never feel desperate  just that they won't be  walk a thousand miles and illegaly cross borders to flee extreme poverty and violence with your family desperate .. 

Lori Milaswrote:

Thinking about collaborating on some kind of history of Joshua Tree climbing it was a wake up call to learn that the actual history might be offensive to modern climbers.  That it would somehow have to include apologies for being too white, too male, to obscene, too privileged.  We would have to sanitize the story instead of recording it as it happened.  

I miss humor, raucousness, good-natured ribbing where everyone understands it all comes with love. As to route names I’d take down racist/violent names in a heartbeat.  So far not a single route name in Joshua Tree has offended me... the grades sometimes do.   

Who are these authorities you think are policing what you should write? You realize, I'm sure, that some of the best selling non-fiction of all time deals with events that are ribald, non-PC, white, male, privileged as hell, etc. The big challenge to anything other than self-publishing a history of J-Tree climbing is that very few people give a shit about it, those who do don't like to spend money, and John Long already beat you to it, mostly.

I have copy #2 of the limited edition of that book. That darned Accomazzo dude got #1. The limited edition was 300. I saw mention of it on SuperTopo and jumped online like a man possessed. I figured I'd be lucky to get #300, but I guess speed counts for something.

I have a pretty large collection of books, and while this one might be #2, in my library it's #1.

I just read this on CNN:

Reduce risk of severe Covid with regular activity, study says. Here's how to get in 22 minutes of exercise daily

https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/13/health/physical-activity-reduces-severe-covid-wellness/index.html

John

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

Reading Joe Fitch's  and Robbins books, Glen Dennys , Steck and Roper etc. most of those guys lived on the edge of poverty by choice. They were very resourceful, motivated, highly intelligent, educated individuals who likely had family to fall back on in a real emergency.  They were privledged in the fact that they had the luxury of choosing to  put all of their energy and resources into climbing . Many folks are in a place where they have traveled thousands of miles, crossed borders on the sly to work jobs that american citizens are not willing to perform in order to survive and feed their families.  Pretty certain that being a climbing bum is a privledge in of itself ;)  Not saying that times might never feel desperate  just that they won't be  walk a thousand miles and illegaly cross borders to flee extreme poverty and violence with your family desperate .. 

Nick hits it on the nose. I would also recommend the Kai Lightner interview on The Nugget. Here is a well off, educated and well spoken young black man who gets stopped and searched just for entering a convenience store in Appalachia. A white dude, no matter the level of dirt bag, would not have to deal with that. 

Kristian Solemwrote:

I have copy #2 of the limited edition of that book. That darned Accomazzo dude got #1. The limited edition was 300. I saw mention of it on SuperTopo and jumped online like a man possessed. I figured I'd be lucky to get #300, but I guess speed counts for something.

I have a pretty large collection of books, and while this one might be #2, in my library it's #1.

Well, Kris, if you ever decide to donate that to Goodwill I'll be happy to take it off your hands.