New and Experienced Climbers Over 50 #15

rgold, sadly that was a great read.

Jan, who am I to question Kamps & Williams? You, I will accept your rating at 5.11D but not higher. I have never climbed 5.12 & never will. 

Rich, I thoroughly enjoyed your accident report - very funny. But seriously, it’s scary how something so mundane could have had even worse consequences. It seems like once a year I read about some famous person who has died because they tripped/slipped and fell and suffered a fatal brain injury. Glad you are doing better. 

rgold, I was already laughing out loud, but when I got to "The ex-president said, 'One day—it's like a miracle—it will just go away,'” I about lost it with my morning coffee. Glad to hear that it did -- finally -- go away. 

Very sorry about your injury Rich, though an 'Rgold classic' account!!!! At our age, we have to be extra careful doing such dangerous things as going outside--especially in winter conditions. Maybe the 'snowbirds' do know something!!! Hope you heal up quickly and completely.   Alan

RGold: my dad did the same thing at age 62.  He dusted himself off, went back inside, and called in sick.  Cracked a rib, as it turned out.  He eventually developed neuropathy which led to several even more spectacular falls, but that was much later.

Mark Frumkinwrote:

rgold, sadly that was a great read.

Jan, who am I to question Kamps & Williams? You, I will accept your rating at 5.11D but not higher. I have never climbed 5.12 & never will. 

Yeah, and he gives British Airways 5.10c as well. It's a full value 5.11aR. At least he didn't call EBGB's 5.9.

I hear you Kris, but you have seen me climb & you know I am no 5.11d climber & yet I did that climb. 

Mark Frumkinwrote:

I hear you Kris, but you have seen me climb & you know I am no 5.11d climber & yet I did that climb. 

Don't sell yourself short there. After all, look at the company you were keeping that day. I'm convinced that the best way to improve one's climbing is to climb with climbers better than yourself. I think you rose to the occasion that day. That climb has a pretty solid consensus for the grade of 5.11c/d. And it's gotten a bit harder as flailing climbers have worn a lot of small features off of the face right under the bulge.

Kristian Solemwrote:

I should mention, hooking was not used to make upward progress, just to remain in place (hopefully) while placing a bolt. The hardest I ever pushed the envelope hooking was to do a route to the right of Rubicon called Seizure. For one of those bolts I had to use opposed hooks, pulling towards each other from thin edges facing in opposite directions. Then, every time I reached back to swing the hammer the damned things popped. Finally I got a hole about a quarter inch deep. It was time for the old Jim Bridwell trick. I climbed up, casually hooked the hole, and drilled the one for the bolt right above it, close enough so the hanger would cover the “cheater” hole when all was said and done.

One thing I'm curious about with ground up trad bolting is how often you guys just started up a slab and then find a section that has no stances? I suppose that's why we see some of these 100 foot runouts, right? Also, it seems like there was an ethic some places, particularly J-tree, that even if you had the stances you shouldn't place bolts more than every 30-40 feet. Is that right?

Mark Frumkinwrote:

I hear you Kris, but you have seen me climb & you know I am no 5.11d climber & yet I did that climb. 

Yea, don't sell yourself short. Every climber has there days. I was on that climb about 10 years ago and was solid at the grade. Not that day. I got worked.

Andrew Ricewrote:

One thing I'm curious about with ground up trad bolting is how often you guys just started up a slab and then find a section that has no stances? I suppose that's why we see some of these 100 foot runouts, right? Also, it seems like there was an ethic some places, particularly J-tree, that even if you had the stances you shouldn't place bolts more than every 30-40 feet. Is that right?

You are correct in that absent any stance from which to drill, you were often forced to "just keep going" until you could stop and drill. Even so, that never translated into 100 foot (or anywhere near that) runouts. And, as Kris' and Bob's postings (and pictures) demonstrate, you could often get a bolt in, even off the most tenuous of "stances." 

I can recall situations where I got to a stance, but initially could only let go with one hand. You repositioned, reached down with the free hand for the drill, maybe held the drill in such a manner that you could use a finger or two on an edge (left hand since I'm right handed) on the best hold. Then quickly reach down with the right hand for the hammer. Sometimes you could get a blow or two on the drill, sometimes not even that before dropping the gear and re-positioning. Eventually, you got a "dimple" drilled. Then once a little deeper, you could actually use the drill as a hold as it gained some purchase into the rock. 

You were set for awhile until you had to pull the drill out to clean the hole and/or place the bolt in the hole. Sometimes you fell off somewhere in the process - though you didn't always have the luxury and would drop all the bolting gear to hang on and try to re-set. Hooks came in later and helped a lot, but as Kris mentioned, sometimes the "help" was only enough to make a desperate attempt at drilling. Type Two Fun (only much later after finishing the route).

I always felt guys like Bob had some advantage as they had more hammering power and could get a bolt in much faster (not to mention his amazing ability to use stances I could barely use to just clip the bolt).

Some of us had the tendency (Way BITD) to place the first bolt as high up as possible - not only to save on drilling, but to "keep the riff-raff off." The only problem is that nowadays, we are the riff-raff.

"We are the riff-raff"---perfect!!! Sounds like an appropriate update of the Queen classic for our generation!!!!

Andrew Ricewrote:

One thing I'm curious about with ground up trad bolting is how often you guys just started up a slab and then find a section that has no stances? I suppose that's why we see some of these 100 foot runouts, right? Also, it seems like there was an ethic some places, particularly J-tree, that even if you had the stances you shouldn't place bolts more than every 30-40 feet. Is that right?

To the first, I can only speak for myself. I didn't really look for those kinds of routes, journeys into terrain where not getting some sort of pro was a real possibility. Of course a lot of climbers did, and I've repeated lots of their routes, always grateful that it wasn't me who had to squirm around on some "stance" 50 feet out, drilling. But then I didn't really play the new route game so much in Josh. Off the top of my head I can only think of five, two of which are totally obscure. And they're all pretty steep to be calling slabs, and none of them are exactly death defying stunts. Being somewhat under the radar I never felt pressure to be particularly bold. That pressure was a reality among the better known climbers.

Most of my efforts were up at Courtright Reservoir, Kern Canyon (Rincon), Dome Rock, and the Needles in that order. I did some good hard routes, but again left the really hard/bold stuff up to climbers like Ron Carson, and that Gilje/Lechlinki machine. Even Ron's bolted routes - with one notable exception - aren't really nuts.

To the second part, no, not really. You'll see a lot of routes, again EBGB's comes to mind, where the drilling from stances, along with a sense of style not to bolt in excess, left us with a route where there are enough bolts, but it's heads up at the same time. If that pitch were bolted like most sport climbs today it wouldn't be half the experience that it is. If it was much more run, very few would do it. So, it's right in the pocket, so to speak. Another great climb that has just enough bolts, and not one too many, is Decompensator of Lhasa. I don't think anyone felt there was an ethic demanding that you shouldn't place bolts more than every thirty-forty feet. It got done, but imo those are not the best routes.

You do see routes with long easier runouts after the crux. Compassion of the Elephants is like that. If you do the crux well, and your head is screwed on straight, the loooong 5.8 runout that offers up the chance of a 100 ft ground fall at the top should be a cruise. 

Keep in mind too that most of the climbers hanging out in Josh were dirt poor, so buying bolts over beer and/or weed was a tough decision. This, of course, lead to shortage of bolts among very good and very bold climbers. This is a wicked combination   .

So I'd say that there were different styles of climbing going on when trad bolting was in it's heyday. There was some very bold climbing going on, but I don't think there was anyone saying that better protected lines were a bad thing (unless of course they were totally lame). I fell in with the camp that didn't thrive on danger. And I could afford bolts, beer, and weed (barely)   .

Edit. "We are the riff-raff." Isn't that a Queen song?

Damn. Alan beat me to it...

Alan Rubinwrote:

"We are the riff-raff"---perfect!!! Sounds like an appropriate update of the Queen classic for our generation!!!!

Speak for yourself....  

When I started leading I was told not to waste time putting pro that was not needed. If you were not going to hit anything on the way down no need for pro.

Kris, my M. O. has always been to perform at the level of who is around me. Even when I was being paid to perform I was unable to force myself to be fast with slow riders around me, but somehow stepped up easily with fast riders around me. 

When Dave and I put routes up we tried to not do runouts more than about 15 feet so that others would enjoy doing our routes.  That has proved to be quite true in the long run and most of the routes we put up get climbed a lot.  Obviously there were times when we went further where stopping to bolt was not practical but I think only Good to the Last Drop and EBGBs really have any scary runouts.  At the same time, if you were a couple pitches out and the climbing got easy long runs were often done just to save on the cost of bolts and bolting.  

If you haven't put bolts in from stances you have no idea how much it can hurt!

Kristian Solemwrote:

 Even Ron's bolted routes - with one notable exception - aren't really nuts.

Which one are you thinking of Kris?  I led one of his bolted routes that made me quite nauseous after the fact.  

Here's a little tale about ground-up bolting from BITD.   supertopo.com/climbers-foru…

rgoldwrote:

Here's a little tale about ground-up bolting from BITD.   supertopo.com/climbers-foru…

Rich, I am so glad you are on the mend... and what a great story!  Lots of laughter there for all of us.  Bob has said that more accidents happen from the crag back to the car than on the rock itself. At the time I didn't understand that, now I do.  I guess we could add 'from the house to the car'. 

I had been wanting to ask you if the stories of old being told here about the Joshua Tree/Tahquitz/Yosemite crowd ring true for the Vulgarians?  Was there the same vibe, ethic, bold style happening in the Gunks?

I've also been wondering how word got around.  Without the internet and Mountain Project, without cell phones... how did the climbing world grow and pass along information?  Would someone in New York, for instance, care that some guy named Bachar was performing magic here in Joshua Tree or in Yosemite?  And vice versa.  

I have the same curiosity about Joshua Tree itself--still trying to understand the groups and gangs that hung out here. Jan and Kristian have explained a lot of it... it's coming into focus.  This is a really big place.  Maybe there were a lot of campfires and a lot of sharing of stories and beta?  Without having been there for any of it... it sounds as though various groups passed through and left their mark here, without perhaps hanging out with other groups.  All I know is that, it's a job to keep up now, where various young climbers are milling about in far corners of this place and putting up new routes, or doing second ascents... but they seem to find each other.  

What a great world.  

I'm taking a selfish moment here to reflect on my 'year of climbing' here in Josh.  First of all, it's hard to indulge in this reflection at all when most of the climbers here are or were lead climbing at very high levels.  With my best full-throttle effort, I may wind up at the end of this year where many climbers start.  Yet for me, this has been a 'success' in a hundred different ways.

3 years ago when I approached Pipeworks gym as a new climber, I said "I just want to be the best climber I can be. No comparisons. Just teach me how to be my best self."  Of course, showing up at 65 years of age, a non-athlete... it took some time together with Ryan (young coach) for him to believe that I meant it.  I never missed a session.  I gave it my all, and we have remained good friends.  

And I still feel that way now when I head out to climb here.  Where most people's best climbing years are behind them, mine are completely unknown... where I am SO curious what's possible for this 'senior' body to accomplish.  I knew there would be limits, but I didn't believe they would be age-related.  

Every bit of this journey has been a blast.  But I do acknowledge that it's time to make some hard decisions.  Yesterday was another great day out with Bob at Cave Corridor--it is fast becoming my favorite place.  Bob set up a toprope on a magnificent rock, with a route called Shaggy Dog (5.9), put up by 'the Kid'.  (Bob? What was his name?  I think this is a picture of him on FA? Picture by Dave Hague)  All other considerations aside, it's a gas to climb a route put up by someone called 'the Kid'.   

So.... Bob's instructions go something like "Crimp down on that hold and CRANK ON UP!"  It's the 'crank on up' part that has eluded me many times.  It's the reason I couldn't get up and over on C.S. Special.  Upper body strength has eluded me on some version of mantleing  on various other routes, including Flake and Bake.  And having ripped off ALL my fingernails, I still don't obviously have the 'crank' part on tiny slab crimps. 

When we've talked about it where I'd like to go with this... Bob has said "You're going to have to get lighter, stronger, or more flexible" to climb at higher grades.  It does seem true that some extra work is required here to climb above a 10b.  (even a 10b).  It's not about 'the grade', but about some exciting routes I really want to climb.  It seems to be decision time--we have a local gym, I have all the training manuals I need, now to decide how much I really want it.