When and at what size is a ledge dangerous?

A couple of years ago I had a really exciting bachelor's party where I fell, hit a ledge, tore my Achilles, and got to take an awesome helo ride off the side of a mountain all the day before my wedding. As fun as all of that was I don't want to do it again. 

I was on a single pitch gear route this weekend trying to make the crux sequence off of a 6-10 inch ledge. I had bomber gear at about head height and was looking at having to climb until the gear was 1-3 feet below my feet before being in a position to place again. The terrain was perfectly vertical aside from the small ledge. I just couldn't bring myself to do it. Too much PTSD, I guess. I wonder what would have happened if I'd committed to the moves and fallen. Of course, any small ledge might hurt you, but at that size what are the chances of serious injury? 

Any small ledge might seriously hurt you.

^^^ and if you bailed, it’s not a tick. 

Michael Rushwrote:

Any small ledge might seriously hurt you.

^^^ and if you bailed, it’s not a tick. 

Why do you care what he ticks? Do you want me to read your high school journal and provide you feedback about how I feel? Tick lists are for personal use. This tick makes particular sense because if you climb a lot you might totally forget you have done a route and now you have a reminder to not do it again. Also for me I put beta in my ticks so I remember what to do next time.

If you are trad climbing place gear that pulls you away from the ledge. If you are bolting try to put bolts that pull you off a ledge. Good example of this is rainy day women or most of world wall. Any ledge can be hazardous or safe its entirely dependent on where/how the climb moves over a ledge.

Michael Rushwrote:

Any small ledge might seriously hurt you.

Thanks for repeating exactly what I said in my original post.

^^^ and if you bailed, it’s not a tick. 

Not the climb to which I refer, but cool story bro. I don't tick to impress, I tick to track climbs I've both attempted and sent.

I had a friend literally fall 2 feet onto a 6" ledge and break his talus bone and was out for a year. It's not the size of the ledge, its how you hit it....or at least that's what she said...

saign charlesteinwrote:

It's not the size of the ledge, its how you hit it....or at least that's what she said...

That's probably fair. I've started looking at fall training literature to deal with mentally preparing and practicing different types of falls. Cheers. 

I think the only answer to your question is 'it depends' 

how you fall, body positioning, rope stretch, belayer technique, angles and edges, there are way too many factors into if or how you hit a ledge. Anything you could catch a toe on could in theory break your ankle or worse.

Based on your description, if your fall would be more likely from a foot popping (your body staying close to the wall) then i'd say you had a good chance of hurting yourself. If your fall would be due to hand popping/pump factor, then you have more of a chance of kicking off the wall to avoid the ledge (with an attentive belayer)...but this is all just guesswork.

As someone who has had quite a few incidents/close calls, I generally back off if i'm not feeling it, or go for it if I am. You aren't always going to be on your A game.

Ledges become dangerous when you hit them at a high rate of speed. 

Ledges are dangerous when they hurt you in a fall. Avoid climbs with.ledges.

One thing you could do is take gradually larger fall at/above that gear. You would get to see where you "land". The belayer also has a role to play in what you're describing - assuming the section is high enough above the ground, a slightly longer fall ensuring you'll land below the ledge might be the way to go. But then you may or not want to trust your belayer, depending how ptsd you are.

The one thing I wouldn't like in what you describe is if there's a change of a "scraping fall" - e.g. you're hanging close to the vertical wall and your feet just slip off without you having a chance to push off the wall. Then no matter what your belayer does you may still have to hit the ledge somewhat....

What's the difference between being a tick and being a dick?

Gunkiemikewrote:

What's the difference between being a tick and being a dick?

one sucks, the other one gets sucked?

Michael Rushwrote:

^^^ and if you bailed, it’s not a tick. 

pretty great 16th post you made there. really contributing to the forum....

Michael Rushwrote:

 and if you bailed, it’s not a tick. 

spectacularly bad and petty take

OP, even the lip of a blocky roof can break your ankle or face if you hit it wrong. Protect against features! And then don't fall!

To be honest, there's no size ledge that's safe and the size of the ledge itself is but a small part of the overall equation. My partner took a fall while aiding and fell on an effectively blank slab except that his foot hit a small ripple on the face that may have had a dime sized edge. He shattered his tib/fib and was unable to walk for many months and the rehab took at least a year iirc. 

And yes, you stated in your original post that any small ledge can hurt you, but that's the point, there isn't a size of ledge that's more likely to hurt you because each fall is a unique and complex situation that transcends the general of what parts are safe and what parts are not. You can have an X" ledge below you and the risk of it hurting you changes if you're climbing directly above it, a few inches to the side, whether you jump or slip unexpectedly, the angle of the rock at the ledge, the angle of the rock where you fall from, or the angle of the rock below the ledge, how your belayer behaves, distance above the ledge and the elasticity of the rope you decided to bring on that day, etc etc etc

Michael Rushwrote: Trevor, that’s the least whiny post I’ve seen from you, everything ok? 

Lol got way more whiny posts coming don’t worry.

I agree with the other folks saying that it's not the size of the ledge but, rather, a vast array of hard to calculate elements are in play.

The way I deal with this, in my own climbing is to:

- look ahead to find the next stance before moving, which makes me feel better about the exposure between pieces,

- think through reversing the moves between the two stances (or, in some cases, actually reversing moves)

Those two thought processes get me through a lot times where I am standing somewhere comfy that I don't want to hit on my way down.

This ledge probably wasn't much more than an inch wide, but enough to fracture my heel.

[Ok, looks like I can't embed a .gif.  So, imagine someone falling down a nearly perfectly smooth face at the New River Gorge, beautiful white and orange Nuttall sandstone, and then this poor schmuck manages to find the only feature on that face.]

And, I'm going to proudly enter the abovementioned route as a tick.  Well, because.

Thanks y’all, last year I did three moves on Evilution - now I’m going to tick dat sh!t.