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New and Experienced Climbers Over 50 #15
Old lady Hwrote: Lori, remember, a 5.10 grade is usually bestowed upon a route by a 5.12+ climber. Poppycock |
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Ummmm...I am skeptical his....fish...is actually that big a catch. So my point about old school? Both Lori and I are climbing in areas put up by YOU PEOPLE. Sheesh. Badasses then, badasses 150 years later. Literally every single place I've climbed, is easier than the local stuff, but even City of Rocks has old school aplenty! I've learned to check who did the FA and how long ago that was. The serious part of my comment, though? It is considerably more hazardous being a sub 5.10 climber, especially starting out. Here, the falls may be okay, but the bolting from back then puts you in groundfall range on rather a lot of routes, in the "easy" grades at least. Part of that is they should be treated more as a mixed climb, and never are, but much of it is just assuming no one would ever fall on a 5.6, 7, 8. They were bolted by stronger climbers, for stronger climbers. Warmups. "Average" climbers, at the time, and the true hardcore who also did places like Smith and City. No one ever guessed it would be how it is now! Best, Helen |
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Helen - the grade should be the grade (with some slight variability of course), it doesn’t matter what the level of the climber who established the route is. 5.12 climbers put up easier routes all the time and grade them correctly. Older climbs that were established when 5.10 was the highest grade should be approached knowing that they might actually be harder by today’s metrics - especially the dreaded 5.9+. And maybe that is what you meant. I have seen some moderate sport routes bolted by higher level climbers with long run outs on easier terrain - when this happens you might say it’s a 5.8 route for the 5.10 leader if there are no fall zones in 5.8 terrain. The climbing is still 5.8, the fall might be high consequence. Other rating systems account for this (British) where we have R and X ratings. TLDR - I disagree that 5.10 (or any other grade) routes established by 5.12 climbers are any harder than 5.10 (or any other grade) routes established by 5.10 climbers. |
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Yes, the grade is the grade. However? It's super easy to think if you are doing okay ish at, say, 5.9, that 5.10 you are eyeballing just might go. But? That 5.10 is still 5.10, and is highly unlikely it was put up by a 5.10 or lower climber. Most likely they were stronger than that. Past the normal person moderate grades? Yeah, then hard new routes may well be worked out by strong climbers...who may not be the FA, or take months/years of work to get it. TL,DR? "Easy" is not necessarily "easy" for a beginner, even if they are theoretically strong enough to climb that grade. Some types of moves, figuring out beta, figuring out sequence, remembering all that? Skills that take time. Even more so on a boulder problem, where precisely the right "easy" move may be needed, and, done exactly. Where I learned extreme caution? The very low grades at City and Smith. Being in "no fall" zones is....character building. Especially when you can't count on not falling. But, once you're launched on the thing, that's that. Best, Helen |
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It's an interesting discussion which brings me back to the non-linearity of climbing grades. The difference between 5.8 and 5.9 is not equivalent to the difference between 5.9 and 5.10 or 5.10 and 5.11. Putting numbers on things gives a false impression that it is a continuous, linear scale with equal intervals between numbers, which it clearly is not. I'm wondering what evidence you have for the idea that it is rare for 5.10 routes to be put up by 5.10 climbers? What about 5.6 routes? Who puts those up? I think route development is usually done by those with greater levels of experience (not necessarily climbing ability in terms of grades), and of course experience probably equates to higher ability/skill level in most cases. Just want to challenge some thoughts here. Erika |
ErikaNWwrote: Okay, maybe it is not rare now, or not rare elsewhere, but I'd still contend that new stuff isn't developed by new climbers, at the least, and most likely is developed by climbers who are, or used to, be what I consider strong, let's just say 5.11? But mainly, why I say this? It's because, climbing "easy" stuff near me, is often flat out dangerous. "Near" includes my whole one visit to Smith, and many visits to City. I don't mean just obscurities out on the margins, although that greatly ups the buyer beware factor. Sometimes, even trade routes. My first multipitch? Scariest thing ever, and the lowest rating I'd climbed on, up until then, lol!  Erika? Me climbing at Maple, sprained ankle and all? Those easy routes were...easy. The only remotely questionable part was having you and Jim spot me getting down that dinky bit of down climb on the descent trail from the multipitch. And, that was just over caution to guard the ankle. The trade routes at City, Smith and Maple, opened my eyes to the possibility of climbs I can do, easily, enjoyably, and even consider leading (like in CO with you!), as opposed to YGD, or at least break something, on bolted climbs here. More than a few visiting climbers I've hosted here have been given pause, staring up at just how "sporty" our sport routes are here. And? The same people did stuff at Smith and City as here, so those places are also buyer beware, for me. The big difference, is that Smith, City, Maple, and wherever the heck we were in CO, are all places with loads of climbers, long established routes, long established grades. I now have that wider perspective on grades.  Old school at Castle rocks part of City. Two routes...both, uh, interesting for the leader. Both easy. My friend up on the rock? Kept cursing the FA, lol! He guessed correctly who it was, both routes. Lots of cursing. My local rock? Is hard. It is also not at all beginner friendly, no matter what a grade might make one think. And, it was also traditional, when that was all the climbing there was. The Do Not Fall people were merely practicing for the extremely scary alpine backcountry stuff. They were followed by people like Tony Yaniro, Tedd Thompson, Greg Lowe, and etc. types. It's a long list of scary badasses, lol! Lori, down in JT? I suspect has a similar sort of thing going on. Just a wildass guess, but? I'm thinking Lori might have a big surprise in store, when she gets to some other areas, and discovers she is stronger than she realizes, with mostly just JT as a measure. She'd totally cruise loads of stuff at City, and elsewhere too! Sorry to talk about you when you're right here, Lori, but short version, you picked a helluva place to learn, and truly, you have thousands and thousands of routes wide open to you now. :-) Best, Helen |
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Helen... I’ve been finding this out!!! Climbing here is macho stuff. I have a friend soon arriving who climbed El Cap with her son and I’m so interested to see how she takes to Josh. I think she may be surprised. So we just left Split Rock and Belle where even Tony was impressed. It’s completely overwhelming the amount of playground. It would take a lifetime. Before we left I had to go see That Old Soft Shoe (10d). Maybe there’s a bolt somewhere... I saw one 40 feet or so above. All I could ask was “WHO ARE THESE ANIMALS?” Do they just walk up? It looks hard (impossible for me) and every bit the 10d. I couldn’t even see a crimp... so it must require Jedi magic. What that means is that it buys Dave more time to call and/or show up to appreciate all my sincere efforts. That Old Soft Shoe will have to wait until 2022, if then. I have a few more routes this season for the red t-shirt. I have a looong way to go to get on those 10d’s.  |
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Fair enough - and obviously grades vary between places and when routes were established. Not arguing that at all - just felt the assertion of 5.10 routes being put up by 5.12+ climbers as perhaps not being true to the grade (and I may have misunderstood you) is a fallacy. Also 5.10 encompasses an extremely high range of difficulty (10-, 10a-d, 10+) as does 5.11, 5.12 etc. I know many people who are 5.10 climbers who do a ton of route development. I also know many 5.13+ climbers who put up routes from 5.6 - 5.13. So I'm not sure that can be generalized either, or a grade/ability put on what your typical developer might be (now, or historically). I personally did not feel the grades in JT or COR were necessarily any harder than other places I've climbed. Different styles. If you aren't confident on slab, JT probably feels really hard. COR 'sport' is more 'mixed' - don't go there expecting bolts where gear can be placed. But 10d felt like 10d. Maple - the easy routes we did together were yes, easy - the 5.10's and 5.11's Jim and I did felt true to those grades. The crag I took you in CCC is graded extremely soft - don't make the mistake of generalizing that to all Colorado areas. Older routes at 9+ in any of these places, I'm never surprised if they feel like 11b. I think we have a different take on do not fall - there are routes where falling is not an option due to poor protection or whatever. I climb trad with a do not fall mindset (although of course I have fallen on gear), mainly because my trad leading grade has me on routes with lots of ledge potential. It has nothing to do with practicing for alpine objectives. In the alpine, we practice do not fall because the consequences of an injury would be higher. Yes, I am aware technical rock climbing started as preparation for alpine/mountaineering, but I'm not sure about the do not fall mentality going along with that. I think it was more due to not having the technically advanced protection (cams, dynamic ropes) that exists now. Your local rock is slick basalt with cliffs that aren't particularly tall, yes? That might be similar to the Golden Cliffs here - 1st bolts tend to be high, and the basalt is polished. I find that kind of climbing really hard also. A lot of times if you really look at it though, a lower 1st bolt wouldn't actually protect much - I'd rather see a high 1st bolt that actually protects a ground fall than a psychological 1st bolt that gives a false sense of security. At the end of the day, climb what is fun for you. Don't worry about the numbers. Sorry for the lengthy post - avoiding getting work done... And... it's snowing again. Happy 1st day of Spring everyone! |
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Well there you go, another route I was involved in that has been uprated. The Old Soft Shoe was 10b/c when we put it up. I can see how it would have gotten harder. At least it isn't as hard as Count Dracula just to its right. That one has razor blades and long reaches. There are some great routes on that wall. If you go down the rode a little further you will find Short Cake, so named because I thought that it was 5.8 while everyone taller than me thought that it was 5.10. It is a really fun route. That is another Hauser route that should be on Lori's list. |
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My experience has been that there is a strong and direct correlation between a developer's ability and the difficulty of most of the routes they put up. A sprinkling of easier routes in the mix, but mostly routes the developer finds cool, interesting, and challenging, especially the challenging part. We are always hoping to get better at this game. |
   Jeff Constine and I finishing up a new 5 pitch 5.10- route near the Saline Valley called Fingers on a Pancake. Ground up mixed route, bolted and gear to 4”. |
Lori Milaswrote: I first met Jan (and Rachel) in the old parking lot for the Boy Scout Trailhead. It was dirt, with a dirt road in. Much different from today. Anyway, it was late, and I was parked back there sleeping when they rolled in. I had Mahler’s 5th Symphony playing on the car stereo, loud as such music should be played. But the thing was on auto repeat. Didn’t bother me in the least. It played all night. I didn’t even know there was anyone else there. Alas, in the morning, my new neighbors were un-impressed with my all-night concert. Since things could only have gotten better after such a start, they did. Just to nit-pic, that’s me in the Games pic. Jan, for the most part, wore black tights. Jan did it few minutes after Marc took the pic. That was the day we both did it without falling. An excellent day it was. Every so often climbing will give you an unforgettable experience. That day is seared into my memory like it was put there with a branding iron . |
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Climbed this on Saturday.. https://forums.redpointuniversity.com/topic/227/winter-climbing/188 |
Kristian Solemwrote: This is gonna stay with me, Kristian. Little by little you all are filling in the missing pieces...not just of who you were, but of who I was, and a part that feels lost. You described a time and place that is very familiar to me--I wasn't climbing, but could easily have been. And it helps explain the disconnect between then, and now... with some real sadness. That could have been me sleeping in my car, playing music on auto-repeat...and easy to meet up with and become best friends with whoever was camping next to me. So maybe if I've been out roaming alone alot, rummaging around for something, it's for the ghosts of a better past. And those friendships. Not that making new history and new friendships is all that bad. But that time (late 60's - 70's) was a powerful time. And now it's paved, and there are parking lots, and tourists by the millions. And perfectly fine routes are now 'redacted'. Lots of weekend warriors. I sat at the base of Billabong because it looked like someone was finally going to climb that face and I've been wanting to watch. (It's been bumped up to this year, hopefully). But he wasn't. He was climbing Bat Crack to the top. But he saw me sitting there and along the way was hollering down... this was his first multi-pitch, he was struggling, he had spent last night in the Holiday Inn, he was tired... nice convo to be having while he was trying to figure things out. ---------------- This is kind of important: while I have been spoofing a bit about Houser and his routes... these are clearly McCollum routes. And Laeger routes. (who was Eva?) Waugh routes. It's been very nice getting to meet Jan (virtually) and learn about these routes... and so much more. Of course, I still want to marry Dave some day... but that's a different subject. I am taking the opportunity to reconnect with Jeremy Schoenborn... and I think he would be a willing partner to head back over to Belle and do some climbing. There's not a prayer (I don't think) to climb That Old Soft Shoe, but I bet there are some 10a and b's I can play on. And I can check out Short Stuff. I can't even THINK how to tackle Split Rocks. Why even start? |
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Just an added thought here, early this morning. If ever we thought we were an aging group ... trucking along past our primes... it occurs to me that we may represent a whole new thing. (as Baby Boomers especially were prone to do.) We trailblazed before and are trailblazing now. And showing up now to climb puts us firmly in the 'now' of history. I'm thinking about a recent post of rgold to Pat Ament--talking about the lifespan and intensity of being a climber... could anyone be more current or present than Rich? I'm coming to understand that we are relevant until we die. |
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My spring road trip ends today. Cochise Stronghold, Mt. Lemmon, Keyhole Canyon, Balloon Wall, Lime Kiln Canyon, Boulder Beach North, Red Rock. Boy was I rusty after not climbing for 3 months. Red Rock was interesting: the reservation system works well and uncrowded (except for Ice Box Canyon parking) considering spring break. Returning to McCall for a few weeks of spring skiing while planning where to go in May. |
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I have a new training program. It's called two days with 3-7 year-olds. Got home last night & sleep 12 hours I rarely sleep more than six hours. I was attacked and assaulted from the moment I stepped out of my truck. & somehow this happened!  |
Mark Frumkinwrote: You need some glitter and a unicorn horn on your forehead to complete the look! Lori? Is the pic upstream with the triangular feature what you were lusting after? If so, me too. I have a confession. I'm a nuisance, watching movies. That rock could be on Tattooine or Dragonstone, and I still wanna know if it's climbable. There was even someone scrambling around a giant wrecked spacecraft, with huge waterfalls.... "I wonder if that freezes? That'd be awesome ice and mixed!" Sigh. More rain here. At least it isn't snow. H. |
Old lady Hwrote: Yup! You’re a climber! Follow the x’s for the route.  Come on down! Sunny here.  |
Lori Milaswrote: Oh dear... I'm drawn to that triangle. Chimney? Offwidth? How off? I'm doomed. :-) EDIT to add, here's a pretty little City of Rocks slab for ya, Lori! "Chumming", on Shark's Fin. Overhanging slab.  |
