Escalante - Cabin Wall closed to climbing

Matt Castelliwrote:

Just dropping the note that if the movers and shakers point to somewhere to donate to help address this issue (and potentially pay for an access easement), point me in that direction. It can be the access fund, WCCC if they get back involved, or wherever. Hope there is a solution in here somewhere.

I wonder if we (the climbing community) can offer an approach to get access back that addresses some anticipated rancher concerns (not helping the bottom line, liability, etc). We could put a donation box at the parking for the area that goes to the ranch, explain that access does not mean liability under relevant statutes (Colorado Revised Statutes Title 33. Parks and Wildlife § 33-41-103. Limitation on landowner's liability), and make space for them to raise other concerns/requests.

Idk who/what org is best to try to sit down with the owners and chat, but a listening-based approach to try to understand the rancher's perspective, plus some humility and offerings of good faith, seem like the place to start.

edit to add: I'm a weekend desert warrior from the Front Range, but I'd be happy to help engage w/ the landowners in any way that's productive. I've counseled other climbing land owners in the past on similar issues, and I could donate attorney time to the cause, if desired. 

I was going to donate to the WCCC here ( westernslopeclimbers.blogsp…). Stunning website :D 

Jim Twrote:

It seems as though the land owners are running cattle, horses, atv’s and Jeep’s in the canyon, so probably aren’t concerned if climbers are leaving footprints in the dirt or driving a few cars up the road.  Climbers simply do nothing positive for their bottom line, and possibly hurt it.  So it’s probably not the best strategy to show up in mass with signs and what not, or to try to convince the owners we are good stewards, since that is not their issue.  It may be simple monetary equation for 

Reread Randall’s post please. The point of the gathering is to teach climbers how to be good land stewards. It’s not a protest or is it on private land. 

Chad Millerwrote:

Reread Randall’s post please. The point of the gathering is to teach climbers how to be good land stewards. It’s not a protest or is it on private land. 

I think the point is that these folks will become more defensive if they see anything slightly out of the ordinary(as its always been). Its best to go strait to lawmakers and legislate the F out of them while they are out buying ammo to shoot at the homo rainbow.

Respectfully, you’re talking out of your ass about an area you know nothing about.

In this area of you’ll get a better response from land owners by simply speaking with the landowners and creating an open dialogue. 

Chad Millerwrote:

Respectfully, you’re talking out of your ass about an area you know nothing about.

In this area of you’ll get a better response from land owners by simply speaking with the landowners and creating an open dialogue. 

These are the people who voted for Boebert. Don't think for a second that they're going to listen to.... anything.

Thank you all for your concern and interest in the potential Cabin Wall Closure. I apologize for any confusion or frustration about the Coalition's communication and/or response.  We  have been in contact with the owner and continue to deal with the situation.  The Ranch is a large operation and we are still awaiting information. Long before Italian Cowboy and Randall Chapman took it upon themselves to become the current voice of the canyon, the Coalition has fostered a relationship with not only the Ranchers, but the BLM, the National Forest, and every managing entity we could to protect and secure climbing access. Interest in the coalition has waxed and waned over the years, but we have always maintained and cultivated these relationships and managed our property holdings so that we are and will remain in the black financially. We do our best to address any questions or concerns voiced directly to us over email, phone, and social media. Being called out publicly by other members of the community does not create an inclusive effective atmosphere, but instead one of division and further confusion. 

By definition, the Coalition is an inclusive organization. Instead of branched efforts, those that wish to take action should reach out and inquire  how we might all work together. 

It is unreasonable to blame or hold the Coalition responsible for the current closure and.or the land swap that occured between the ranch and the Colorado Parks and Wildlife. When the land swap occured the Access Fund and their attorneies were consulted about further recourse to no avail. All that can be gleaned from the unfortunate situation is that this was a prime example of the dangers of state held land. State agencies do not require the oversite or public opion to make significant decisions. Responsibility should be meted out  more accordingly. The BLM, Coalition, and Historical groups were all firmly against this quiet exhange. 

              After the land swap occured, we made contact with the owner of the ranch in hopes of creating a relationship. From the getgo, the ranch voiced concerns about speeding, unsanctioned camping, trails, trash, etc. 

As we all know, climbers are not exclusively responsible for speeding, camping, etc in that canyon.  However, the ranch spoke specifically about," tall vans that people seem to be camping out of", and some bad exchanges with self identified climbers.  

           Access continued  with minor issue until COVID was in full tilt. Seemingly overnight the Grand Valley was overwhlmed with outdoorsy folks. Areas that I have climbed at with little or no people suddenly had many cars and people from all over. I am sure this has been the case nearly everwhere. We were hearing reports of heated exchanges with ranchers and possible retaliation by the ranchers to climber's vehicals. The BLM has had to deal with a huge surge of people camping whereever and however they want in that canyon as well as others. This prompted the coaltion to have a meeting to discuss what we can do to address this. Neither Randall nor Italian Cowboy was in attendace. A long time climber of the area came up with making info cards that could be passed out and placed on parked cars. Escalante was one of three areas that we were generating cards for. We were at final draft when we got wind of the potential closure. We have accelerated our process and are printing  the first batch of these cards . They are due to arrive soon. 

         Due to the surge in popularity of areas in the Grand Valley,  I encourage everyone who enjoys these areas to be vigilant and responsible. Also help spread the word on how to be responsible. Dont hesitate to have civil conversations with those who are not abiding by the rules or best practices to help educate them. 

At this time we are still in the process of verifying the closure. Fences on a ranch can have more pratical uses then agitating climbers.

Please refrain from pursuing any discussion with any of the ranch hands or managers. 

Now, seperate from my role within the Coalition, my personal thoughts on people assembling in the canyon are as follows:

This situation is not best handled enmasse and onsite.   A bunch of people waving signs around and  attempting to foster stewardship over the course of a couple hours is destined to only garner negative attention by those with which we are trying to appeal to. As indicated by other people on this forum, that sort of approach would likely not be interpreted well by the Ranch as most know the type or personalities involved.  I do not understand the rush to address and confront the Ranchers and the situation. Patience, diplomacy, and strategy should be paramount with these sorts of things until we know more.

Thanks,

Jesse Zacher

Huh, I don't think I am communicating my intentions well. I'm going to reflect on that....

Chad Millerwrote:

Respectfully, you’re talking out of your ass about an area you know nothing about.

In this area of you’ll get a better response from land owners by simply speaking with the landowners and creating an open dialogue. 

Respectfully of course you are wrong as Ive spent more than a year living nearby in Moab and another solid 20 years dealing with BLM ranchers in the area. Things were easier when the sport wasnt overrun by the instagram #vanlife crowd that are scared of the local ranchers. 

Thank you for the update Jesse. 

I will share the info cards that Jesse is referring to via the WCCC social media channels later today. The intention is to have these cards distributed in the canyon, but also within the local community (Colorado Mesa Outdoor Program, Grand Valley Climbing, REI, Grip Bouldering, Summit Mountaineering). These cards are certainly not a final solution, but one of many first steps in highlighting the issues in Escalante.

If you are interested in taking a handful of cards out to Escalante Canyon, please contact me via the WCCC social media channels.

Whatever the future of the Cabin Wall is, it's important that every user of Escalante Canyon be a good steward and set a good example. Otherwise we all risk losing access to similar areas.

Jesse Zacherwrote:

Thank you all for your concern and interest in the potential Cabin Wall Closure. I apologize for any confusion or frustration about the Coalition's communication and/or response.  We  have been in contact with the owner and continue to deal with the situation.  The Ranch is a large operation and we are still awaiting information. Long before Italian Cowboy and Randall Chapman took it upon themselves to become the current voice of the canyon, the Coalition has fostered a relationship with not only the Ranchers, but the BLM, the National Forest, and every managing entity we could to protect and secure climbing access. Interest in the coalition has waxed and waned over the years, but we have always maintained and cultivated these relationships and managed our property holdings so that we are and will remain in the black financially. We do our best to address any questions or concerns voiced directly to us over email, phone, and social media. Being called out publicly by other members of the community does not create an inclusive effective atmosphere, but instead one of division and further confusion. 

By definition, the Coalition is an inclusive organization. Instead of branched efforts, those that wish to take action should reach out and inquire  how we might all work together. 

It is unreasonable to blame or hold the Coalition responsible for the current closure and.or the land swap that occured between the ranch and the Colorado Parks and Wildlife. When the land swap occured the Access Fund and their attorneies were consulted about further recourse to no avail. All that can be gleaned from the unfortunate situation is that this was a prime example of the dangers of state held land. State agencies do not require the oversite or public opion to make significant decisions. Responsibility should be meted out  more accordingly. The BLM, Coalition, and Historical groups were all firmly against this quiet exhange. 

              After the land swap occured, we made contact with the owner of the ranch in hopes of creating a relationship. From the getgo, the ranch voiced concerns about speeding, unsanctioned camping, trails, trash, etc. 

As we all know, climbers are not exclusively responsible for speeding, camping, etc in that canyon.  However, the ranch spoke specifically about," tall vans that people seem to be camping out of", and some bad exchanges with self identified climbers.  

           Access continued  with minor issue until COVID was in full tilt. Seemingly overnight the Grand Valley was overwhlmed with outdoorsy folks. Areas that I have climbed at with little or no people suddenly had many cars and people from all over. I am sure this has been the case nearly everwhere. We were hearing reports of heated exchanges with ranchers and possible retaliation by the ranchers to climber's vehicals. The BLM has had to deal with a huge surge of people camping whereever and however they want in that canyon as well as others. This prompted the coaltion to have a meeting to discuss what we can do to address this. Neither Randall nor Italian Cowboy was in attendace. A long time climber of the area came up with making info cards that could be passed out and placed on parked cars. Escalante was one of three areas that we were generating cards for. We were at final draft when we got wind of the potential closure. We have accelerated our process and are printing  the first batch of these cards . They are due to arrive soon. 

         Due to the surge in popularity of areas in the Grand Valley,  I encourage everyone who enjoys these areas to be vigilant and responsible. Also help spread the word on how to be responsible. Dont hesitate to have civil conversations with those who are not abiding by the rules or best practices to help educate them. 

At this time we are still in the process of verifying the closure. Fences on a ranch can have more pratical uses then agitating climbers.

Please refrain from pursuing any discussion with any of the ranch hands or managers. 

Now, seperate from my role within the Coalition, my personal thoughts on people assembling in the canyon are as follows:

This situation is not best handled enmasse and onsite.   A bunch of people waving signs around and  attempting to foster stewardship over the course of a couple hours is destined to only garner negative attention by those with which we are trying to appeal to. As indicated by other people on this forum, that sort of approach would likely not be interpreted well by the Ranch as most know the type or personalities involved.  I do not understand the rush to address and confront the Ranchers and the situation. Patience, diplomacy, and strategy should be paramount with these sorts of things until we know more.

Thanks,

Jesse Zacher

Hey Jesse,

 thank you for your response, I think it’s well thought out, comprehensive and informative on the complexity of the matter. I want to know how you expect anyone to have this information when you don’t put it out publicly, and historically the coalition has not engaged with the public. There a few things that I want to point out here that are inaccurate, generalized or without context.

You’re making it sound like the coalition is an inclusive group of people in a war room battling it out to make access happen. The reality is, the group is detached from the community and is not willing to change with the times. You have members who no longer live in the state, you also have just lost two members who have been on the board 10+ years. One of those people was Randall, so don’t act as if he’s detached from knowing what’s going on. He’s been in those trenches with you. Your lack of acknowledgment to his hard work is unfair and rude to someone who had been a cohabiter on the board.

I would also like to thank you for calling me the voice of a canyon, it means a lot to finally have a title in the community. All sarcasm aside, we are pushing to spread stewardship by talking to climbers and possibly holding up “slow down signs” next to the landowners already makeshift built slow down signs. No one’s knocking on doors, don’t worry your ego can still be intact I truly believe the relationships you forged are far better than I could have done. We are simply looking to the future, the coalition handing out cards is essentially what we were getting the jump on. There are four of us going, it’s not a hippie sit in that will turn into Kent state.

 You sound like the next generation of gatekeepers. You remember when you were getting heckled for fixing old bolts and putting anchors on climbs because they needed it, and the old guard said “that’s just the way it's done don’t fix or change routes” reread your message you're telling me there’s only one way to approach this problem and it’s your way. Your way operates through a broken coalition. We were talking about engaging the community where the coalition was and has been lacking. I repeat “I will not talk to landowners” that’s not my responsibly or expertise.

What happens to these relationships when you move on? They are done and we will begin to really see things change in the community. The long game is to include the community and let them know how intricate the relationships are, it took a week for you to address and explain the situation should have been one day. Also, to clarify I wasn’t invited to your yacht club meeting so don’t call me out as if I didn’t show up.

I truly respect everything you have done, it’s a hell of a lot! Built bridges (metaphorically speaking and literal bridges) hundreds of first ascents In the canyon, built trails, cups of coffee with landowners etc… You’re someone that I don’t know well but always looked up to because of the whispers of your greatness in the canyons, the rocks share that message. Perhaps take a step back and look at what’s happened in the community over the last five years. The time you “haven’t” spent in the community and if you’re giving the WCCC the attention it needs to be the best coalition possible.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsionwrote:

These are the people who voted for Boebert. Don't think for a second that they're going to listen to.... anything.

Not all of them.

Don’t be so narrow minded and judgmental. 

M Mwrote:

Respectfully of course you are wrong as Ive spent more than a year living nearby in Moab and another solid 20 years dealing with BLM ranchers in the area. Things were easier when the sport wasnt overrun by the instagram #vanlife crowd that are scared of the local ranchers. 

I’ve lived out here for the past 6 years and have also been dealing with BLM and private land owners in regards to access issues for two decades.

My experience says you’re incorrect in many of your assumptions and biases. 

I'm not a hunter, just a target shooter, but I am afraid that some of my fellow gun owners are poor stewards of the land.

Once in the early '80s, right above the old cabin, I climbed up to where a blue rappel sling had been left. It was attached to a bolt that was barely left in rock that had been shot away by who knows. I was able to pull the bolt out with 2 fingers. There were more than 70 bullet impact points! Too bad the shooter(s) weren't good enough marksmen to sever the sling with one shot.

It made me appreciate the protection climbs located in parks enjoy. 

Once in Long Canyon I did some target shooting with Charlie Fowler. We knocked a few cans around, and at one point Charlie took a bead on a varnished boulder, but I quickly cautioned him not to mark up the rocks. He thought about it for a moment then thanked me, but most yahoos with guns are shamefully abusive.

Anyway it prompted me to come up with camo rap chains that shooters were less likely to spot.

Chad Millerwrote:

I’ve lived out here for the past 6 years and have also been dealing with BLM and private land owners in regards to access issues for two decades.

My experience says you’re incorrect in many of your assumptions and biases. 

Did you fist fight any of them?

M Mwrote:

Did you fist fight any of them?

No but I did shoot two of them. 

Bitter Trad wrote:

The name-calling and dissing of the WCCC is really not helpful. The AF is on board and there is discussion of a lease for Cabin Wall but even the owner is not really up to speed. Please have patience. 

Reading the threads from the past years it sounds like Escalante is a crime scene with car vandalism and a wallet stolen. That seems like a problem worth watching out for in the meantime.

Could you lend some credence to your statements about the AF? As of right now you’re just an anonymous poster on MP.

Could you please elaborate on how you know what’s actually going on in this situation?  

Seriously.  

We’re getting conflicting messages from the local climbing community and the WCCA. 

Thanks!

Chad Millerwrote:

Could you lend some credence to your statements about the AF? 

Access Fund wrote:

Thanks for passing this along.  We've received a number of alerts regarding this closure.  We've reached out to the Western Colorado Climbers Coalition for more information and to offer our help.  In the meantime, don't hesitate to reach out if the situation changes or if you have any questions.  

Cory Nwrote:

Access Fund wrote:

Thanks for passing this along.  We've received a number of alerts regarding this closure.  We've reached out to the Western Colorado Climbers Coalition for more information and to offer our help.  In the meantime, don't hesitate to reach out if the situation changes or if you have any questions.  

Thanks!

May I ask where got this?  Was it a PM, in another thread, AF website?

Chad Millerwrote:
May I ask where got this?  Was it a PM, in another thread, AF website?

As soon as the closure was posted on MP I emailed AF directly using their form https://www.accessfund.org/take-action/report-an-access-issue

In two days I got a response from an employee  of the AF with the above email.