The Diet of A Champion

There is no debate - eating a variety of plants is good for you.

As for protein and other nutrients, it's perfectly possible to be healthy on a vegan, vegetarian, or omni diet. Some of the largest and strongest animals on the planets are vegan - blue whales, elephants, moose, bison, etc. Those bodies and muscles are built from plants. There's nothing magical or necessary about eating animal foods. Protein molecules from plants are identical to protein molecules from flesh as far as science can tell.

No matter what you eat, you'll want to watch for balance and variety. Eat a lot of nutrient-dense foods (colorful plants). Don't eat the same things every day. Don't eat a lot of empty calories and junk food.

Using a food tracker like myfitnesspal.com is super helpful for understanding where you may be falling short or oversupplied.

Obligatory "I'm a vegan" line. Have been vegan since 1990. For me it has nothing to do with training and everything to do with compassion for animals. If I don't need to take other lives to ensure my own survival, if I don't need to participate in industries that treat feeling beings as commodities, I choose not to. Yes, there are a few potential nutritional deficiencies you have to take care to avoid, like B-12, iron, and omega 3s. But it's easy to do. If you're thinking of going vegan, all the nutritional information you could need is here: https://veganhealth.org/. I know the RD who operates that site, Jack Norris. He has also been a vegan for most of his life and is dedicated to helping other vegans avoid making nutritional mistakes that lead to failed vegans. He doesn't sugar coat or shy away from facts.

ETA correction - not blue whales. Substitute rhinos. 

Sean Burkewrote: I've been vegetarian for 15 years, I climb .12, I have been over 20,000', I squat close to 500lbs, I run mountain marathons.

Prove it. 

Blue whales eat krill. 

Long Rangerwrote:

Blue whales eat krill. 

Ah, fair enough. Strike blue whales from the list of large, strong herbivores. 

Long Rangerwrote:

Blue whales eat krill. 

Blue whales will eat anything they can swallow.  It just that krill is the most abundant thing they eat. I watched a whale blow a huge curtain of bubbles around a school of sardines and then come up the middle, the sardines boiled out of the water trying to get away, followed by an enormous open mouth. Pretty spectacular. Totally carnivore.

L Kapwrote:

Some of the largest and strongest animals on the planets are vegan - blue whales, elephants, moose, bison, etc. Those bodies and muscles are built from plants. There's nothing magical or necessary about eating animal foods. Protein molecules from plants are identical to protein molecules from flesh as far as science can tell.

If we accept this as a logical argument one could also say some of the slowest most lethargic animals eat plants: sloths, pandas, and koalas. If you compare most of human physiology to other primates, our digestive system and body is designed to eat some level of meat. I am making no value judgement about being able to climb hard and being vegan it is obviously possible. Or that you have to eat meat at all. But we could probably spam this thread with arguments for/against the benefits of meat, it simply is not simple.

Also either ice cream is holding me back or it is a performance enhancer. 

Wilson On The Drumswrote: First, the importance of fruits and vegetables is not controversial

Hahaha! Riggght.

Been vegan for a year now for all the reasons and am very pleased with the decision. Compared to omnivore me, it's easier to maintain a weight I like for climbing and to slim down for sending times while maintaining fitness and satisfaction. I don't feel limited in my eating at all- actually the opposite as the vegan community is pretty into getting creative with their foods and you have to stray away from making the protein the centerpiece of every meal. I eat mostly whole foods, limit my oil and simple sugar intake though I do indulge in maple syrup on my oatmeal and the occasional chocolate chip cookie or three. My general macro breakdown is somewhere around 60-20-20 carb- fat- protein. I am 33y/o, climbing regularly for eight years, 5'8", ~130-140 lbs depending on time of year, and climb around 8a+ and boulder around V10 if I put my mind to it.

To start I read a lot to learn about what to eat and used Cronometer to track what I was eating and learn the nutritional makeup of different plant foods. I did this as an omnivore, so it wasn't a huge change but I found it informative and helped me adapt to a new way of eating. It was fun and challenging and now I only occasionally track what I eat. I take a multivitamin daily to make sure I'm topped off on B12, iodine and other micronutrients. I get a shit ton of iron from my diet alone. I eat around 2300kcal/day and between 60 and 100g of protein with all amino acids present and about 40-60g of fiber. I supplement on heavy exercise days out of convenience. It's not that hard to get those targets as long as you eat whole foods, and you generally don't need an won't benefit from huge amounts of protein. 

The idea of a needing to combine foods like beans and rice to make a 'complete' protein is a myth. Even a leaf of spinach has all essential amino acids, to say nothing of black beans. I heard the 'no such thing as an essential carbohydrate' statement a few years ago, and I even repeated such as thing as I tried keto out for a bit, but there's a reason why it's your body's preferred source of fuel: it fuckin' works. If you eat too much protein while in ketosis your body converts it to carbohydrates because carbs are that fuckin' rad. I wouldn't go back to keto if I was paid to do it- easily the most disgusting way of eating I've tried personally.  

But diet is one aspect of fitness and it doesn't exist in a vacuum. If I sit around all day, even if I eat the best whole foods, least oil, least sugar, I'd still feel like shit. Humans need to be active every day in addition to eating well if we want to feel good and see athleticism persist. But if I'm active and eat like shit that will produce bad results eventually. I realize some climbers don't give a shit about what they eat because they think it will limit their enjoyment of life and I think that's unwise over time. Humans adapt, and switching to healthy eating might challenge a person at first, but you get used to a new way of being and it becomes second nature with no enjoyment lost as long as you have the right mindset. 

As far as resources go for vegan eating, nutritionfacts.org is fun. Mic the Vegan is a Youtuber whose videos I find informative (he links directly to research papers he cites in his show notes). How Not to Die is a good book, as is Eating Animals and Proteinaholic. Lots of resources out there for those interested in eating vegan.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

If we accept this as a logical argument one could also say some of the slowest most lethargic animals eat plants: sloths, pandas, and koalas. If you compare most of human physiology to other primates, our digestive system and body is designed to eat some level of meat. I am making no value judgement about being able to climb hard and being vegan it is obviously possible. Or that you have to eat meat at all. But we could probably spam this thread with arguments for/against the benefits of meat, it simply is not simple.

Also either ice cream is holding me back or it is a performance enhancer. 

My intent in talking about elephants and bison was just to point out that it's factually possible to build a big, strong, muscular, powerful body solely eating plants. Yeah, it's possible to be slow and lethargic too. I'm not the most motivated person on the planet, but I wasn't super motivated in the fifteen years I was an omnivore either.

Our bodies aren't "designed" to do anything. They are evolved. Humans evolved to be able to eat a variety of foods. I will point out that it's a lot easier to thrive as someone who eats all plants rather than someone who eats no plants. I'm waiting to see how long before Jordan Peterson cracks.

I feel the same way you do about ice cream, though my preferred form comes from cashews rather than bovine mothers.

Has anyone who is strictly vegetarian ever had issues with kidney stones after going vegetarian?   My best friend and his wife went vegetarian and did lots of vegetables grown in their own garden.  After about 6 months both came down with pretty significant cases of kidney stones.  Their doctor attributed it to high mineral content of what they grew.   They modified their diet but are still “mostly” vegetarian and it seemed to take care of their issue.  

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

Has anyone who is strictly vegetarian ever had issues with kidney stones after going vegetarian?   My best friend and his wife went vegetarian and did lots of vegetables grown in their own garden.  After about 6 months both came down with pretty significant cases of kidney stones.  Their doctor attributed it to high mineral content of what they grew.   They modified their diet but are still “mostly” vegetarian and it seemed to take care of their issue.  

I've been vegan 30 years, never had a kidney stone. It's not common among vegetarians. Oxalate stones come from an imbalance of calcium and oxalate in the diet, if you're eating a ton of things that are high in oxalate but low in calcium (e.g. chard, beet greens, and rhubarb). If your friends were still eating dairy, this is unlikely to have been the issue, and six months is a pretty short timeframe. Maybe the soil they were growing in, or the fertilizer they used, was the issue? Dehydration and high salt intake can also be contributing factors. 

https://www.ornish.com/zine/vegetarian-cause-kidney-stones/

https://www.kidney.org/atoz/content/diet

L Kapwrote:

My intent in talking about elephants and bison was just to point out that it's factually possible to build a big, strong, muscular, powerful body solely eating plants. Yeah, it's possible to be slow and lethargic too. I'm not the most motivated person on the planet, but I wasn't super motivated in the fifteen years I was an omnivore either.

Our bodies aren't "designed" to do anything. They are evolved. Humans evolved to be able to eat a variety of foods. I will point out that it's a lot easier to thrive as someone who eats all plants rather than someone who eats no plants. I'm waiting to see how long before Jordan Peterson cracks.

I feel the same way you do about ice cream, though my preferred form comes from cashews rather than bovine mothers.

I think everyone wants to see Jordan Peterson crack. I would agree an all meat diet would end quite poorly. Mostly just wanted to point out there is no one right answer. I do wish our government would subsidize cashew ice cream like our bovine ice cream cause at my consumption level I would be spending $50 a week if I were on cashew cream. 

I was under the impression that Jordan Peterson had already cracked

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jordan-peterson-depression-drug-dependency-daughter-mikhaila-rehab-russia-0xtz2ph32

I don't want to see anybody crack, but as far as I'm concerned, his style of debate is pretty easy to deconstruct and I don't know why people continually fall for his arguments and point of view. 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

I think everyone wants to see Jordan Peterson crack. 

Right on. 

I would agree an all meat diet would end quite poorly. 

Some cultures have done it, but it involves doing things like eating raw whale skin and blubber, and the raw organs of little snow birds. Personally, I'd rather have an orange. 

Mostly just wanted to point out there is no one right answer. 

If the question is "how to eat for health or athletic training", then sure. There's no compelling health or athletic training reason to be vegan. Most vegans who stay vegan for the long haul aren't doing it for our health though. We do it for the animals, usually. We just like to point out there is no compelling health or athletic training reason why you CAN'T be vegan. 

I do wish our government would subsidize cashew ice cream like our bovine ice cream cause at my consumption level I would be spending $50 a week if I were on cashew cream. 

You're eating 10 pints of ice cream every week? Whoa. You must do mad cardio. 

L Kapwrote:

You're eating 10 pints of ice cream every week? Whoa. You must do mad cardio. 

You didn't see the ice cream thread did you. That would probably be an under estimate.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

You didn't see the ice cream thread did you. That would probably be an under estimate.

Good gravy. That's like the amount of calories I eat in 4 days. Do you eat anything else?

Former Climber wrote:

I stumbled on this podcast the other day. It started playing while I was driving home from climbing. I was going to switch episode as soon as it was safe to do while driving because I had no interest in nor knowledge of bodybuilding. Surprisingly, I found myself totally immersed in this 2hr+ conversation. This is from a champion (your title didn't say what sport) who is also someone who has never eaten meat his whole life (born in 1989). A fascinating story if you ask me.

Looks like he supplements his diet with plenty of Vitamin S. 

What is the point of this thread? 

Former Climber wrote:

I don't know if you realize this: What if he got where he is today by working extremely hard at it? If that's indeed the case, wouldn't you say your easy dismissal is utterly unfair on the guy, and wouldn't that make you feel bad?

The same thing can be said about Lance Armstrong. I am not saying the guy didnt work extremely hard, or that he isnt a champion. Just that you and I and everyone else on this board wont get anywhere near these results even with the same exact effort and diet. 

Doug Chismwrote:

The same thing can be said about Lance Armstrong. I am not saying the guy didnt work extremely hard, or that he isnt a champion. Just that you and I and everyone else on this board wont get anywhere near these results even with the same exact effort and diet. 

He's lean but he doesn't have an unreasonable amount of muscle mass, there's no reason you can't get a good physique being a pure vegan just getting good protein is just a lot harder and for the most part, you need more of it. This is what  The reality of roids is not that.

This is the reality of roids.