This redacted (renaming) routes is out of control!

Not my quote, but one of my worldviews is: "If you're going to find racists everywhere, you will find the real racists nowhere."

Based on what little I know about John Bachar I think he meant to honor black women, not denigrate them. It's an important and often ignored distinction.

Regarding the Russ Walling story, I haven't a clue.

Have fun tomorrow, I'll be ice climbing.

I don’t know if we should change or memorialize dumb names. I do know that route names are just a point of reference for pieces of stone that don’t give a fuck what we think. Be like the stone, bloviators. Be like the stone.

Dave K wrote:

The 1980s probably sounds like ancient history to some of you, but I know for sure that nobody used word negro in 1989 with good intentions.

What about in 1994?  

Let's forget for a moment that it is impossible for you to know the intention behind every single utterance of that word in any era (let alone have knowledge of every single instance in which it was uttered), and just leave you with the inanity and seething incredulity of your claim- and this:

Dave K wrote:

 

Don't you think it would be best to celebrate stories of actual black women, rather than perpetuate a lie about one that never existed?

Don't you think the opinion of an African American woman on the issue of race and the history of racially charged words is more relevant than that of some white dude with the best of intentions living in one of highest cost of living cities in the country?

Guess not.

Dave K wrote:

Things were different in 1989. Ignorance was more common. 

I've only skimmed through most of the posts in this thread and don't really have an opinion on MP's "redaction" action...

And yes, 1989 was different...

That said, I think there's been more than enough "ignorance" in the last few years for it to still be considered "common..."

In fact, considering the last 4 months, I'd say it was "fairly common...."

ed "if someone wants to name their route a stupid, ignorant and racist name; people will think that person is stupid, ignorant and racist...." e

Dave K wrote:

It wasn't named in a positive light. 

You have next to no evidence for this, yet are willing to cast aspersions. My quote is hardly a strawman argument.

Dave K wrote:

The people that maintain these legacies and chose to use continue to use those names are members of the same community, not an outsider with an "obsession" for people of a different race. I'm surprised you don't see that distinction. 

Advocating that someone pass an arbitrary genetic or cultural test before being allowed to engage in certain activities, or use certain words, is probably racist.

Dave K wrote:

We were talking about a segregated sports league and a scholarship fund.

So now you are saying John Bachar was a victim because he couldn't play in the Negro League.

Wow

If you are trying to say that I'm not a fan of segregation you'd be correct.

As I'm over my limit I'll just end with: All that virtue signaling and making unfounded assumptions must be tiring.

I just read through a newsletter from the Access Fund that profiled a climber who is native American. She discussed this topic and brought up the route formerly named, "trail of tears". She pointed out that we wouldn't go to Red Rock and name a new route "Las Vegas mass shooting". I think she has a point. 

A discussion about John Bachar's thoughts on race is interesting in it's own right, and way more on topic than Nazis or thoughts on books people haven't read. But I'm not sure it's a necessary part of the discussion of route/wall names.

Let's say someone named a route "Las Vegas Mass Shooting," as mentioned above. Would the first question be wether the climber was for or against mass shootings? Would we have to figure out their take on murder before we decided if it was a route name we wanted to use or not? Would we be concerned that if we didn't use the name, folks would forget there was a mass shooting in Las Vegas?

It seems the question could be as simple as, "do I want to say that thing when I go climbing?"

Garry Reisswrote:

If you are trying to say that I'm not a fan of segregation you'd be correct.

As I'm over my limit I'll just end with: All that virtue signaling and making unfounded assumptions must be tiring.

Virtue signaling- Webster’s dictionary defines it as a last ditch effort usually used to discredit someone when said user has no other facts to prove a point.

Dave wins.

Next topic we can all agree to never agree on- using bowlines as a tie in while being belayed on a grigri on a sport route I plan to rappel off....

plantmandanwrote:

... we wouldn't go to Red Rock and name a new route "Las Vegas mass shooting". 

Only because that would be a stupid name. If that incident was given a catchy name, and especially one that could relate to climbing or an experience had while climbing, there probably already would be a route named after it. Most people wouldn't care, and no one would be twisting themselves in knots trying to explain how a route with that name is evidence that the climbing community thinks the shooting was a good thing or that it hates people who visit Las Vegas.

https://www.mountainproject.com/route/109740212/sandy-hook-special

https://www.mountainproject.com/search?q=pearl%20harbor

I've got one. How about a hypothetical squeeze chimney in RR named "Mass Scooting"?

Is it poor taste? Probably. Would some people laugh at it while others roll their eyes at it. Definitely. Should it be redacted and how should that be decided?

John Qwrote:

https://www.mountainproject.com/route/109740212/sandy-hook-special

Living and teaching in CT when the sandy hook shooting happened, I think that name is kinda fucked up. That said, I'm not upset about it enough to start a campaign to get the name changed. 

So does anyone disagree with the idea of "let the name stand with the FA's name so everyone knows they're an asshole"? If not, looks like we found our answer.

Yoda Jedi Knightwrote:

So does anyone disagree with the idea of "let the name stand with the FA's name so everyone knows they're an asshole"? If not, looks like we found our answer.

Sounds good to me. Now we need someone to let Nick know

John Qwrote:

Only because that would be a stupid name. If that incident was given a catchy name, and especially one that could relate to climbing or an experience had while climbing, there probably already would be a route named after it. Most people wouldn't care, and no one would be twisting themselves in knots trying to explain how a route with that name is evidence that the climbing community thinks the shooting was a good thing or that it hates people who visit Las Vegas.

https://www.mountainproject.com/route/109740212/sandy-hook-special

https://www.mountainproject.com/search?q=pearl%20harbor

Lol, true.

I saw James lucas post about a boulder problem named after a lung cancer my grandma died from. Who do I blame?!! I need to know before I don't care anymore. 

Jamila W wrote:

From now on when anyone asks how I got into ice climbing I’m going to say I’m married to Fish! I’ll be considered old school for sure!

Haha! That's the spirit, thanks for the humor. BTW, it might be better received to say: "I'm FISH'S 6th wife" or I'm FISHE'S 6th EX-wife to spice it up and draw folks in:-) 

M Spraguewrote:

I actually disagree with that too, at least as a blanket rule. "trail of tears" is a common expression that was used also for that event. A local route with that name actually has a feature that looks like a trail of tears. Unless there is a related theme going on at the crag, I bet most "Trail of Tears" routes aren't referencing genocide and certainly aren't advocating it. Even if names do reference horrific events like battles, disasters and massacres, they are usually making an allusion through exaggeration. Humour noir is also a valuable form of expression and we would be lesser for it if we try to eliminate it because some don't get it and take things literally. Obviously there is a gradient into poor taste.

This is the sort of white mansplaining that is the root cause of this problem.

Maybe we should name a route "Fast Times at Columbine High" after we wait long enough for it to pass into dim memories among Native Americans as to what it really means (while nearly every Native American could tell you the horror of the Trail of Tears or other genocidal events their people endured).

Here's what we do: Rename the route "Trail of Tears" to "Never Forget the Trail of Tears" and then as a community we might be considered to be doing something worthwhile.