Mask recommendations for indoor climbing where required by law?

Mike Stephanwrote:

[correct stuff]

I retract my earlier comparison of refusing to wear a mask to refusing to wear a seat belt. It's more like driving drunk and saying you accept the risk of hurting yourself in a crash.

Dylan Colonwrote:

I retract my earlier comparison of refusing to wear a mask to refusing to wear a seat belt. It's more like driving drunk and saying you accept the risk of hurting yourself in a crash.

It’s more like driving drunk, hitting and killing and somebody else, but walking away unscathed.

https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/longevity/534219-coronavirus-infection-provides-some-immunity-for-at

• The study found that antibodies provided an 83 percent rate of protection against coronavirus reinfection for those previously infected, compared to people who have never contracted the virus.
• Scientists, however, found those with immunity may still be able to carry the virus in their nose and throat and could spread it to others.

I didn't say that recovering from Covid conveys permanent immunity from all other and future Covid variants, so don't put words in my mouth.  But it does convey long-term immunity.  (Test: how many confirmed cases of re-infection have there been?  I only know of two (which were debunked) but if you could get reinfected with the same variant in a short period of time, there would be millions of cases! Where are they, eh?)

 CoV-2 is just like the common cold, the flu, malaria and many other viral diseases where the virus mutates over time.   There's a new flu shot every year, right?  And it's well known that partial cross-reactive immunity is usually present after any viral infection, so that if you are exposed to a variant, the second infection is milder or asymptomatic.  

And guess what?  Getting the Covid vaccine doesn't convey permanent immunity either, so are you going to require people who have been vaccinated to wear masks, forever?

Since you guys are so smart, please contrast the immunity conveyed after vaccination to immunity conveyed after infection and recovery.   Is there any practical difference?  (The short answer is no.)

And for extra credit, how do all you doubters think Herd Immunity is achieved if people are not immune after being infected? Duh.

John Byrneswrote:

I didn't say that recovering from Covid conveys permanent immunity from all other and future Covid variants, so don't put words in my mouth.  But it does convey long-term immunity.  (Test: how many confirmed cases of re-infection have there been?  I only know of two (which were debunked) but if you could get reinfected with the same variant in a short period of time, there would be millions of cases! Where are they, eh?)

 CoV-2 is just like the common cold, the flu, malaria and many other viral diseases where the virus mutates over time.   There's a new flu shot every year, right?  And it's well known that partial cross-reactive immunity is usually present after any viral infection, so that if you are exposed to a variant, the second infection is milder or asymptomatic.  

And guess what?  Getting the Covid vaccine doesn't convey permanent immunity either, so are you going to require people who have been vaccinated to wear masks, forever?

Since you guys are so smart, please contrast the immunity conveyed after vaccination to immunity conveyed after infection and recovery.   Is there any practical difference?  (The short answer is no.)

And for extra credit, how do all you doubters think Herd Immunity is achieved if people are not immune after being infected? Duh.

Are you this passionate about having to wear a shirt and shoes?

Since the first case in CO was reported on March 5th covid has not stolen a year of John's life. 

I always check local pawn shops when I have something stolen. You might start there John. Better call though. They probably won't let you in without a mask.

Might also help if you start a Stolen thread here. Good luck!

Wow, John Byrnes is an anti-masker. I'm shocked, SHOCKED!

John Byrneswrote:Since you guys are so smart, please contrast the immunity conveyed after vaccination to immunity conveyed after infection and recovery.   Is there any practical difference?  (The short answer is no.)

And for extra credit, how do all you doubters think Herd Immunity is achieved if people are not immune after being infected? Duh.

No one actually answered this in a meaningful way. I understand effective % number does not necessarily mean % to spread but I am just illustrating probabilities here.  Lets take the two numbers above and say 83% protection from COVID from getting COVID and the vaccine is 95% effective. The important thing about vacciniation effectiveness is the compounding of probabilities. 

Say no one got the vaccine and there are 10 people who have had covid interact with someone who has currently has covid. The probability that all 10 of those people walk away COVID free is 16% (.83^10). Same situation but with the vaccine say someone with COVID interacts with people who have been vaccinated.  The probability that all 10 of these people walk away COVID free is 60% (.95^10).

The herd immunity population now on average has 2.7 COVID (the first person and the 1.7 people they infected) infected people and the vaccinated population has 1.5 (the first person and the .5 people they infected). Lets round down and say the herd immune population has 2 people and the vaccinated population still has one that are infected. We repeat the process from step one where each person interacts with 10 people. The probability that all 20 people (two groups of 10 people) exposed do not get COVID is 2.4% (16% x 16%) and on average we now 5.4 people infected on average (the first person, the second person and the 1.7 people they each infected). Compare that to the vaccinated population which has a 60% chance of infecting no one else. The average number infected is now 1.5 (first person and the half person they infected on the second iteration). In two iterations the herd immune population has triple the number of people with COVID. Imagine the stark difference that occurs after 100 iterations.

Feel free to nitpick the numbers, I don't really care, the important thing is the compounding of events. You can't think of an infection as x person gives disease to y person. You have to think about it as x person gives disease to y person gives disease to z person gives disease to grandma. 

Herd immunity obviously doesn't work if people can get persistently reinfeceted but if the vaccine can keep people from being reinfected for another six months the compounding of events makes it worth it. 

John Byrneswrote:

I didn't say that recovering from Covid conveys permanent immunity from all other and future Covid variants, so don't put words in my mouth.  But it does convey long-term immunity.  (Test: how many confirmed cases of re-infection have there been?  I only know of two (which were debunked) but if you could get reinfected with the same variant in a short period of time, there would be millions of cases! Where are they, eh?)

 CoV-2 is just like the common cold, the flu, malaria and many other viral diseases where the virus mutates over time.   There's a new flu shot every year, right?  And it's well known that partial cross-reactive immunity is usually present after any viral infection, so that if you are exposed to a variant, the second infection is milder or asymptomatic.  

And guess what?  Getting the Covid vaccine doesn't convey permanent immunity either, so are you going to require people who have been vaccinated to wear masks, forever?

Since you guys are so smart, please contrast the immunity conveyed after vaccination to immunity conveyed after infection and recovery.   Is there any practical difference?  (The short answer is no.)

And for extra credit, how do all you doubters think Herd Immunity is achieved if people are not immune after being infected? Duh.

Harden the fuck up you pearl clutching ninny. 

John Byrneswrote:

I didn't say that recovering from Covid conveys permanent immunity from all other and future Covid variants, so don't put words in my mouth.  But it does convey long-term immunity.  (Test: how many confirmed cases of re-infection have there been?  I only know of two (which were debunked) but if you could get reinfected with the same variant in a short period of time, there would be millions of cases! Where are they, eh?)

 CoV-2 is just like the common cold, the flu, malaria and many other viral diseases where the virus mutates over time.   There's a new flu shot every year, right?  And it's well known that partial cross-reactive immunity is usually present after any viral infection, so that if you are exposed to a variant, the second infection is milder or asymptomatic.  

And guess what?  Getting the Covid vaccine doesn't convey permanent immunity either, so are you going to require people who have been vaccinated to wear masks, forever?

Since you guys are so smart, please contrast the immunity conveyed after vaccination to immunity conveyed after infection and recovery.   Is there any practical difference?  (The short answer is no.)

And for extra credit, how do all you doubters think Herd Immunity is achieved if people are not immune after being infected? Duh.

 You’re retired or unemployed huh?

John Byrneswrote:

Getting the Covid vaccine doesn't convey permanent immunity either, so are you going to require people who have been vaccinated to wear masks, forever?

Masks are necessary as long as the virus is actively circulating, and no longer.

Not everyone is immune to measles, which is airborne and vastly more contagious than COVID and quite deadly, especially to children. Since the mid 1800's it has killed perhaps 200 million people (source: web.archive.org/web/2009100…). We don't wear masks to protect against measles because most people are vaccinated against it, so there is no actively circulating virus in the community. If we had a situation like with COVID-19 where there were millions of active cases of measles and the majority of the population was not immune, you bet your ass there would be mask requirements everywhere to fight against measles. 

Masks will no longer be necessary to contain COVID-19 when, like measles, it fades into the background as a result of vaccine-induced herd immunity. COVID shots will probably eventually be part of the regimen all children are required to get before starting kindergarten.

And? 

This thread started as masks in climbing gyms.

Pretty simple, to me. Wear a mask, my gym stays open, afloat, and survives, even with much reduced capacity. 

Don't follow the rules, no matter your opinion of them? Wave goodbye to my gym, and, a whole bunch of other small businesses I care deeply about.

Pretty simple decision. I wear it for others, yes, but also, well honestly, mostly, for my own selfish self interest. 

YMMV.

Best, Helen

EDIT to add, then there's this:

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/120188235/climbing-post-covid

I'm super healthy, but no one knows in advance what will happen if you get this thing. I really appreciate others at least pretending to care....

My girlfriend has asthma and exposure could be disastrous for her. She relies on other people to do the absolute bare minimum of wearing a mask in public so that she can have some sense of normalcy and still do things like go to the store if she needs something and I’m not available to go. Wearing a mask is the slightest of inconveniences, if you can even call it that. If you are so selfish that you can’t put on a mask in public the same way that you put shoes on your feet, you don’t have a place in a functioning society.

If you don’t want to wear one in the gym then cancel your membership and don’t fucking go. I promise no one will miss you.

Josh Lipkowrote:

My girlfriend has asthma and exposure could be disastrous for her. She relies on other people to do the absolute bare minimum of wearing a mask in public so that she can have some sense of normalcy and still do things like go to the grocery store if she needs something and I’m not available to go. Wearing a mask is the slightest of inconveniences, if you can even call it that. If you are so selfish that you can’t put on a mask in public the same way that you put shoes on your feet, you don’t have a place in a functioning society.

If you don’t want to wear one in the gym then cancel your membership and don’t fucking go. I promise no one will miss you.

I'm in the same same boat.  Despite a very healthy lifestyle, I've had two inhalers in my medicine cabinet since I can remember.  Can never seem to beat a normal chest cold without getting bronchitis and I've had pneumonia 3 times.  Haven't even thought about stepping foot back in a climbing gym, especially know how the 20-somethings in Boulder don't seem to give Covid a second thought.  I figured climbing outside would be fine, but seems people don't give a second thought to setting up shop right next to you maskless.  I know the odds of someone standing near me outside getting me sick is low, but I don't want to take that risk, and asking people to mask up or back up is exhausting and always potentially confrontational.  It has turned what started as a pretty good climbing season into forgetting what cams look like.

What is especially frustrating is that I'm sure so many of these 'my face my right' people would be totally fine to mask up or back away if we had this conversation in person.  'Hi, I'm high risk with a history of respiratory issues would you mind etc etc etc' - but because there's a sign saying that for me, we're all sheep and this is america and they dont have to listen.  

Just piling on an already exhausting thread to say - maybe just pretend that anybody you don't know is in the Covid high risk category and listen to the public health experts for their sake, and if it happens that you were right and everyone else was wrong, then I guess you were a good person for nothing, darn.

Dan COwrote:

Just piling on an already exhausting thread to say - maybe just pretend that anybody you don't know is Covid high risk category and listen to the public health experts for their sake, and if it happens that you were right and everyone else was wrong, then I guess you were a good person for nothing, darn.

Yeah, that would really suck. I can barely stand the thought of taking a precautions that costs me nothing (other maybe that I look dumb in a mask, which bruses my ego a bit) and have it turn out to not have been useful.

Dan COwrote:

 Haven't even thought about stepping foot back in a climbing gym, especially know how the 20-somethings in Boulder don't seem to give Covid a second thought.  I figured climbing outside would be fine, but seems people don't give a second thought to setting up shop right next to you maskless.

It’s strange. I had one guy roll in hot showing the lay of the land to some other boulderers, he got in my space faster than I would have been comfortable pre-pandemic. I’d met him before and gave him the benefit of the doubt and simply moved to the area they’d just evacuated, but, yeah, it’s not a big surprise we are where we’re at.

Not to mention they’re blithely coming into the air space of somebody who routinely comes into contact with dozens of covid positive people a day at work. I already got covid at work and now have the two Pfizer shots, so I’m *probably* safe now but it just shows that making assumptions about your risk around others isn’t an accurate gauge. Three days before I started with symptoms when I got with Rona, I ran 12 miles, did a bouldering session, and paddle boarding for an ad hoc triathlon. A couple days later started a solid two weeks of feeling like shit and about a month total recovery.

I'm not high risk but my mother is very sick so I have to pretend I'm high risk.  Bums me out so much to see people "defending their rights" knowing that they are actively putting my mother at risk to prove a point. 

That said, anyone else just fully avoided gyms since last march?  I haven't even been tempted to climb in a gym, and the relatively temperate winter has been helpful in gettin outside. Honestly avoiding the gym, I've had my best outdoor season in years.  

SinRopa wrote:

isn't there some personal responsibility on the "at risk" person to simply avoid those areas/activities and not expect everyone else to go above and beyond, like not eating on a 13 hour flight? 

How do you make sure, 100%, that you're not yourself, "at risk" and not even know it? How many people do you know that have been like, "Hey! Surprise! I have cancer?! WHO KNEW?!".

Or are you saying it should be obvious - like everyone who has some sort of metabolic syndrome should just stay at home? 'cause that's statistically a good chunk of people in the US. 

As an immunocompromised person who has literally had to relearn how to walk the mask issue isn't something that is black and white yet there is rigid thinking on both sides. My issue is people justify almost any activity if they are wearing a mask. I have said this before, but if you think going to a climbing gym with a mask on is somehow safe and then get all fired up when people outside far away are not wearing masks your a hypocrite. Also, if you wear a relatively ineffective mask then complain about people being maskless you do not care about science (this is discussed up thread). People expect everyone embrace their risk threshold and any other threshold is unreasonable and irresponsible. I think sinropa's example is perfect someone else is expecting him to align with their risk threshold which is not explicitly being communicated if this person wasn't wearing an n95 they are obligating him to mitigate the risk rather than themselves. There is an insane thought process where if someone gets within 3 feet of someone for a second that person is evil but if you sitting 7 feet away for three hours thats okay. 

Rob Dwrote:

That said, anyone else just fully avoided gyms since last march?  I haven't even been tempted to climb in a gym, and the relatively temperate winter has been helpful in gettin outside. Honestly avoiding the gym, I've had my best outdoor season in years.  

My wife works with high risk patients and gets her second shot next week. That said, we haven’t been to the gym (or restaurant/theater/show) since early April. We have kept and renewed our membership though. I built a pain cave in the garage, and we’ve been getting outside as much as reasonable, and honestly, my wife is climbing harder than ever, and I’m back to where I was 20 years ago.