Falling on last 3 bolts of silence

Could you call yourself a 5.15a climber? The end of a route is entirely a arbitrary if you named a new route mute that ended three bolts short of silence could you call yourself a 5.15a climber?

You can only call yourself a 5.15a climber if you are able to onsight every 5.15a in the world.

Seriously, though, there is no cheating in climbing, but 99% of the time you should just finish the project you set out to do unless life circumstances have really gotten in the way so you can no longer climb on it, but you need to tell yourself you did something in order to put the climb to rest in your head and move on with your life. You wouldn't get to name it something else though. That's just silly.

Yes, anyone can call themselves a 5.15a climber, including people who aren't 5.15a climbers. For example, I can call myself a 5.15a climber: I'm a 5.15a climber. QED.

Do you really have nothing better to do?

If you arbitrarily decide that every route ends at the bottom now, I climb 15d

Trevor Taylorwrote:

Could you call yourself a 5.15a climber? The end of a route is entirely a arbitrary if you named a new route mute that ended three bolts short of silence could you call yourself a 5.15a climber?

Is this what qualifies as deep philosophical thought on MP now?

"It doesn't matter what you call yourself, it only matters what others call you."

                -Tradiban

I feel stupider for having read this thread. Two thumbs down OP

So in seattle there are bolt lines where the fist anchor is 11b, second 12d and third is 13a. People don’t bat an eye if you call yourself a 11b climber even though you lowered off halfway up the wall. It seems weird that people consider extensions awesome but really the original FA didn’t make it to the top of the wall.

This reminds me of the movie where Alex Megos falls off halfway up Jumbo Love and then names it a new route and calls it 5.14+.

Silence is 15d not 15a though, right?

Anyway to climb 15d you have to climb a route, not the crux. You could call yourself a 9c+ boulderer or whatever that French grade is.

Trevor Taylorwrote:

people consider extensions awesome but really the original FA didn’t make it to the top of the wall.

In my neck of the woods, the FA made it to the top. But there are few easy routes, so mid-way anchors are added after the fact so there are climbs for most everyone.

Trevor Taylorwrote:

So in seattle there are bolt lines where the fist anchor is 11b, second 12d and third is 13a. People don’t bat an eye if you call yourself a 11b climber even though you lowered off halfway up the wall. It seems weird that people consider extensions awesoZ on me but really the original FA didn’t make it to the top of the wall.

I’m not sure I understand your problem with any of it. Sport climbing routes are arbitrary, and the placement of the anchors is determined by FA.

If someone climbed 11, they are 11climber. If they climbed the 12, they are the 12climber. The 11they climbed could be a stand-alone route, or a first pitch of a harder route.

It also doesn’t matter if the original FA climbed the 11, and then someone else bolted and FA’d the extension, or if the FA bolted/sent the entire thing, and put in intermediate anchors/called the first half of the route 11b, and the etire thing 12b.

If there are no intermediate anchors, then you climbing the first few bolts of a random route doesn’t count as climbing that route, or that grade. You can tell your friends that the first 3 bolts of Pure Imagination didn’t feel any harder than 5.10, and tell them that you climbed those first 3bolts... and that doesn’t make you a 5.14 climber, just because you climbed the easy opening sequence of the route. 

Lena chitawrote:

If there are no intermediate anchors, then you climbing the first few bolts of a random route doesn’t count as climbing that route, or that grade. You can tell your friends that the first 3 bolts of Pure Imagination didn’t feel any harder than 5.10, and tell them that you climbed those first 3bolts... and that doesn’t make you a 5.14 climber, just because you climbed the easy opening sequence of the route. 

But this does perhaps make you a 5.10 climber, and could be a worthy "route" to do in an area that lacks other good 5.10s (clearly not the case in the RRG, but true in some places). Does it count as a "real route", and do you get to log it for points on 8a.nu? IDK, and it doesn't really matter. Climbing is arbitrary, and climbing to the 6th bolt of a route then lowering off is no more arbitrary than most other climbing challenges. So that arbitrary 5.10 might be a good route for someone to do, or a good component of the warmup circuit.

A great example is Suburban in Rumney. It climbs the first 7 bolts of an existing route then lowers off (albeit at a fairly sensible stopping point). You certainty don't the Urban Surfer's 13d points for it, but you do get 13a points. And it has become a known, accepted, and popular route at the 13a grade for Rumney climbers. 

If Suburban is a community-accepted arbitrary challenge, I see no reason that an individual climber can't come up with their own arbitrary challenge for their own climbing. Near Seattle, there is a 13d (Enigma) that climbs a technical lower wall, through a juggy roof, then to a heinous vertical boulder problem on the headwall. It is basically 12a to V9 to some outro climbing. Climbing to the lip of the roof then lowering off the permadraw before the crux makes for a very enjoyable 12a. It isn't a named "route", and generally isn't known as a challenge for 12a climbers to seek out. But maybe it should be. The area is fairly short on good 12a's, and a lot of climbers would enjoy it if they knew about it. It is actually a higher quality 12a than the known and popular 12a just to its right. The only difference is one route has a name and ends at a 2 bolt anchor, and the other doesn't. Maybe if we named it "Little Enigma" and started spraying about it people would climb it. But for now it is just a secret, quality "route" that is never crowded.

If taking this approach, the key is to be honest with yourself about what is the goal and what constitutes completion of that goal. If your goal from the beginning is to climb the first 7 bolts of a much harder route, clip the permadraw, and lower off, then that is an entirely acceptable (though arbitrary) goal and once you complete that goal you have succeeded and everyone goes and gets ice cream. Yay. But if you fall off the last bolt of your 12d project, and decide to retroactively say its 12c to that point and say the goal is complete and you did a 12c - that's just being dishonest to yourself. You didn't achieve the thing you set out to do.

How this fits in with accomplishments in top-end 5.15 climbing? Don't know, don't care.

Say, gang, lively discussion.

Whatever happened to being a 5.fun climber?

w00t!

Lena chitawrote:

If there are no intermediate anchors, then you climbing the first few bolts of a random route doesn’t count as climbing that route, or that grade. 

so what your saying is that I should bring a drill up and just throw some anchors in and then I can say I sent a route.

JCMwrote:

I agree exactly with this. People worship climbing ethics like a dogma when it’s entirely arbitrary game we play. I enjoy the game but sometimes people don’t seem to realize we’re playing a silly game climbing rocks.

Trevor Taylorwrote:

so what your saying is that I should bring a drill up and just throw some anchors in and then I can say I sent a route.

Haha! If you wanted the wrath of everyone around you, for the pleasure of saying you sent a 3-bolt 5.10.

The conventions are pretty clear. After someone bolted/FA’d the route, you cannot add bolts to the existing route, without an ok of the FA, or the decision of local community, if the FA is no longer around.

You can bolt an extension, and FA that one, but you can’t add an intermediate anchor and call FA  of the shorter partial route without special circumstances.

Arbitrary, but them are the rules. 

Lena chitawrote:

Haha! If you wanted the wrath of everyone around you, for the pleasure of saying you sent a 3-bolt 5.10.

The conventions are pretty clear. After someone bolted/FA’d the route, you cannot add bolts to the existing route, without an ok of the FA, or the decision of local community, if the FA is no longer around.

You can bolt an extension, and FA that one, but you can’t add an intermediate anchor and call FA  of the shorter partial route without special circumstances.

Arbitrary, but them are the rules. 

Define "local community".

Tradibanwrote:

Define "local community".

Some things are impossible to define. But you know them when you see them. :)

Trevor Taylorwrote:

so what your saying is that I should bring a drill up and just throw some anchors in and then I can say I sent a route.

You shouldn't bring a drill, what you should do is just add permadraws (or get on a permadrawed roure), assign a grade up to each draw, and lower off wherever you fall and claim that grade.

Lena chitawrote: Arbitrary, but them are the rules. 

Well as discussed up thread those rules get broke. For what it’s worth I was thinking about bolting this 5.12 that ends with 20 feet of 13+ roof crack or what ever a 1/4 inch of finger tip at 45 degrees is.

Pwefin I feel like that is kinda where climbs could go. The whole thing is honestly silly. Two perma Anchors on perma drawed routes are point less.