Is Ondra aiding Perfecto Mundo?

TLDR: Is having somebody hang off fixed ropes and dry holds while you climb crossing the line of free and aid? Are fans the next step in the evolution of free climbing?

I want to preface this with: I am not trying to degrade Adam Ondra and the fact that he is the best climber ever.

If you've been following his videos about trying Perfecto Mundo (5.15c), he talks a lot about the conditions. In the video he posted on 12/23, there is a person hanging from a fixed rope at the crux of the route with a fan blowing on the holds. I know Ondra has taken some heat about all his kneebars, which personally I think is unwarranted, but I feel that having another person continuously blowing air and drying holds is a bit ethically wrong. I get when you're climbing at a higher level than I'll ever dream of climbing, conditions matter. However, I feel that what he's doing to get better conditions is almost unfair to the others who have freed the route. I wouldn't go as far to say it counts as aid, but in my mind, it walks the line between free and aid. Also, is this just one of those evolutions of the sport that change the sport in a positive way and expand the definition of free climbing?

Reminds me of Eliud Kipchoge’s sub 2-hr marathon which, despite being impressive as hell, would not have happened in a “real” scenario. 

No, its not aid, and its not ethically wrong to use a fan. It just falls in the category of strategy. And had he sent with the fan, it would not have diminished the achievement of the previous sends. 

Yes, its becoming much more common to use fans to improve your skin conditions. I've used one bouldering in warmer than ideal conditions, and it helped, but not nearly as much as if i had been climbing on a cooler day. From that experience alone, I doubt that a fan constitutes an unfair advantage. Not everyone, including the pros, can wait around forever for the optimal temperature/humidity/wind/sun that works best for each persons skin and preference.

They're a little weird to see on sport routes, but it's nothing new. I know people who have used them right here in your backyard on routes in AF. Check out Dave Graham below using one:

That's just, like, your opinion man. Think there was a big hurrah when these bad boys started appearing in bowling alleys?? I for one welcome a crag HVAC system for year round primo connies. 

as long as hes honest about it....

E Fwrote:

Reminds me of Eliud Kipchoge’s sub 2-hr marathon which, despite being impressive as hell, would not have happened in a “real” scenario. 

Except organizing a whole event to be strategically targeted to achieve something isn't common in running ethics. With that being said pacers are still a thing in normal races. I think this is more similar to using a pacer in a normal track event or waiting for the weather to let up a bit.

For it to be like kipchoge there would have needed to be a 60 foot wall of fans, someone heating/cooling the rock, someone chalking his hands every move, a special 5mm rope made just for the send, aluminum perma draws, him wearing an earphone getting precise beta, wearing shoes custom made for the route.

Of course its aid, Subman Blow Dry. 

Rollinwrote:

No, its not aid, and its not ethically wrong to use a fan. It just falls in the category of strategy. And had he sent with the fan, it would not have diminished the achievement of the previous sends. 

Yes, its becoming much more common to use fans to improve your skin conditions. I've used one bouldering in warmer than ideal conditions, and it helped, but not nearly as much as if i had been climbing on a cooler day. From that experience alone, I doubt that a fan constitutes an unfair advantage. Not everyone, including the pros, can wait around forever for the optimal temperature/humidity/wind/sun that works best for each persons skin and preference.

They're a little weird to see on sport routes, but it's nothing new. I know people who have used them right here in your backyard on routes in AF. Check out Dave Graham below using one:

Props to the shoulder strength of that guy holding a fan over his head for 15 mins

His videos seem to be full of subbies and fluffers catering to his sometimes childish whims.  My favorite is they built him a climbing wall near Silence so he wouldn't have to hike to the rocks every day - no gym in town, so rough.  It's also an interesting sign of how much money a few of these top guys must have now in sponsorships.  I think being called #1 in the world for a few years now has gone to his head.  Makes me want to see the underdog rise up and crush him.  Meanwhile, Megos rolls in a sedan and isn't afraid to sleep in the open on the side of the road - more my type.  The Olympic showdown will be interesting.

It‘s the professional climbers variation of wearing socks in tight climbing shoes or having your belay certificate on your harness while at the crag. It‘s totally harmless but looks pretty uncool.

Matt Swaimwrote:

Props to the shoulder strength of that guy holding a fan over his head for 15 mins

He’s just Dave Graham’s biggest fan. 

Fans are as much “aid” as using the weather channel to get the best conditions.

One thing I like about climbing is it's a relatively complex sport (movement & mental engagement wise) but is at its core fairly simple to participate. Stuff like this (and to lesser extent knee pads/taping etc) just complicates things. I imagine I won't be the only one to draw a line & stand on the other side. 

But no, I don't consider it to be aid.

Bill Schickwrote:

His videos seem to be full of subbies and fluffers catering to his sometimes childish whims.  My favorite is they built him a climbing wall near Silence so he wouldn't have to hike to the rocks every day - no gym in town, so rough.  It's also an interesting sign of how much money a few of these top guys must have now in sponsorships.  I think being called #1 in the world for a few years now has gone to his head.  Makes me want to see the underdog rise up and crush him.  Meanwhile, Megos rolls in a sedan and isn't afraid to sleep in the open on the side of the road - more my type.  The Olympic showdown will be interesting.

Wow

I think it's been well-established that everything is aid other than nude onsight free solo.

Also, god I hope it's safe enough to hold the olympics this summer. Basically everyone has the potential to shake things up for the men. For the women, it's janja all the way.

Fans are as much “aid” as using the weather channel to get the best conditions.

No its not like that at all. 

1. He hasn't freed the route. Yet. That should be the end of the discussion. But if you like
2. If he redpoints with "having somebody hang off fixed ropes and dry holds while you climb" as per the OP? That means he did not do the route under his own power. He had help. That's aid.

Its cut and dried (cough), really. Claiming a redpoint using such tactics is a Taint. A stinky taint.

I think it is ridiculous, regardless of whether it’s aid.  But, to be fair, I didn’t use chalk for the first 20 years of my climbing career. 

Bill Schickwrote:

His videos seem to be full of subbies and fluffers catering to his sometimes childish whims.  My favorite is they built him a climbing wall near Silence so he wouldn't have to hike to the rocks every day - no gym in town, so rough.  It's also an interesting sign of how much money a few of these top guys must have now in sponsorships.  I think being called #1 in the world for a few years now has gone to his head.  Makes me want to see the underdog rise up and crush him.  Meanwhile, Megos rolls in a sedan and isn't afraid to sleep in the open on the side of the road - more my type.  The Olympic showdown will be interesting.

"Quality" input as always Bill

The route has bolts therefore yes, aid

Cherokee Nuneswrote:

No its not like that at all. 

1. He hasn't freed the route. Yet. That should be the end of the discussion. But if you like
2. If he redpoints with "having somebody hang off fixed ropes and dry holds while you climb" as per the OP? That means he did not do the route under his own power. He had help. That's aid.

Its cut and dried (cough), really. Claiming a redpoint using such tactics is a Taint. A stinky taint.

What about the help of the cobbler who made his shoes, chalk, his coach, etc? Is the difference here that somebody is up there holding the fan? In that case what if Adam fixed a fan somewhere on the route himself, lowered, then sent? 

No, but it's certainly not goody style.