The Diamond

I climbed flying buttress and bunch of stuff in glacier gorge before I tried Diamond. First route was pervertical. 

I probably had 50 or so pitches of 5.11 before I went up Diamond. You probably could be fine being a competent 5.10 climber and heading up there. It would be much more fun having more experience at harder grades and then heading up Casual.

What stiles said. Try climbing some routes like these, *and time yourself*:

South Face (Petit Grepon)

Culp Bossier (Hallet)

Flying Buttress

Barb or Sykes Sycle (Spearhead)

These will be fun in their own right.

Also, maybe practice some simul climbing for easier terrain. Pick up some progress capture devices (to protect your leader from the second falling; CT RollNLock or Kong Duck are best) and head up north ridge of spearhead or something similar.

Part of the problem is we don't have a great system in the US for evaluating alpine competency. We don't use alpine grades (e.g. french adjectival system), and we don't have 'guidebook times' to measure our performance by, which means that you need to evaluate the 'overall difficulty' of a route yourself and figure out what an appropriate time is. I don't know how to advise you regarding evaluation of the 'overall difficulty' of an alpine climb, let's just say that an easier alpine route can have a technically harder crux than a harder alpine route, and that you need to be taking into account length, approach, how sustained the technical difficulties are, and route finding difficulties. Regarding time the UIAA grades are often decent proxies. You should be finishing UIAA grade III routes in under 8 hours, but ideally 6. Grade IV routes in under 12. If a *team* is slower than this that *team* is not ready to step up the difficulty.

My emphasis on the team is important. Don't underestimate the partnership. You cannot climb the same alpine routes with all partners. Many partners are completely unsuitable for alpine climbing at all, while a strong partner might bump up what you can expect to climb above what you'd be able to climb with a peer (even assuming you're swapping pitches), since they can make up for time you waste.

Like any serious project just rap in and start working the moves on trax.

Does this thread make anyone else feel like they have no business being anywhere near the Diamond? 

I mean sure, I onsighted Arianna but I've only done one of those listed routes, have never simuled with a progress capture device, and have never timed myself up anything. 

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsionwrote:

Does this thread make anyone else feel like they have no business being anywhere near the Diamond? 

I mean sure, I onsighted Arianna but I've only done one of those listed routes, have never simuled with a progress capture device, and have never timed myself up anything. 

Nobody is suggesting these are the only ways. These are just very direct ways for someone with limited experience.

Cowardly Egoist wrote:

Also - IMO no one should be roping up in the North Chimney. 

It gets really dangerous really fast. I've had people drop rocks on me, and seen someone fall. It's serious business up there.

these statements seem contradictory.  l'd learn from the later rather than former.

Cowardly Egoist wrote:

Also - IMO no one should be roping up in the North Chimney. Be ready to climb 500 ft of loose, slippery, chossy 5.4 with all your gear, packs, food, water, etc. Roping up puts everyone below you in danger. 

Strongly disagree.  Skillful use of a rope in the N. Chimney does not expose parties below to rockfall.  Soloing does, however, put you at risk of a fatal or near-fatal fall.  

Brief history lesson to add perspective:  in August 2013 a friend of mine took a fall in the N. Chim.  They had just swung into fixed pitch leading from a short simul-pitch. Perhaps a slip, perhaps natural or human-caused rockfall; he doesn't know or remember.  What is known though is he was on belay with gear in and that undoubtedly saved his life, albeit with grievous injuries.

Fast forward to this past summer, when there were two unroped falls on the Lower E. Face. One, from near the base of Pervertical, resulted in a fatal fall down Field's Chimney. The other was a slip while soloing the N. Chim.  The individual took a 100+ footer and unbelievably survived, again with significant injuries.  

I've soloed the North Chimney, simul-climbed the North Chimney, and pitched it out.  Many times.  It is quite easy to use directionals to keep the rope from knocking rocks off, especially for a highly competent alpine climber who has spent plenty of time in comparable or worse terrain in the mountains. Not trying to come off as egotistical; just share the rationale behind the common theme in this thread of having a very solid base of experience before venturing onto the Diamond.

I'm also not saying human-caused rockfall isn't a risk in the Chim, just that soloing is 100% not the best way to address it.  Rather, choose not to climb if there are many parties ahead.  Certainly use a rope if you are so inclined, and do it well.  If you pitch it out, place belays in the few protected stances.  Minimize your time in any dangerous place in the mountains by having the confidence, skill, and experience to move quickly.  

Finally, for what it's worth, most of the rockfall I have seen in/near the North Chimney has been natural, falling from the generally wet and exceptionally chossy area just above.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsionwrote:

Does this thread make anyone else feel like they have no business being anywhere near the Diamond? 

I mean sure, I onsighted Arianna but I've only done one of those listed routes, have never simuled with a progress capture device, and have never timed myself up anything. 

But you also weren't uncertain enough about your readiness that you asked for validation from an internet forum. IMO, doing so speaks for itself.

As others have said the N Chimney and other similar terrain (+ altitude and possible weather) are what separate the Diamond from being another straightforward, multipitch rock climb. Accidents can happen to anyone, regardless of fault, but a base of experience can sure help to hedge against them occurring and/or resulting in the worst.

MauryBwrote:

But you also weren't uncertain enough about your readiness that you asked for validation from an internet forum. IMO, doing so speaks for itself.

As others have said the N Chimney and other similar terrain (+ altitude and possible weather) are what separate the Diamond from being another straightforward, multipitch rock climb. Accidents can happen to anyone, regardless of fault, but a base of experience can sure help to hedge against them occurring and/or resulting in the worst.

I do take some issue with this. I don’t see anything wrong with simply asking what a climb of that caliber entails. I figured it would be a good idea to get some real opinions as opposed to some articles online or something. I’ve learned a lot from this thread, which is what I was hoping for. 

So what's the consensus on soloing the North Chimney vs using the Chasm Rappels?

sandrockwrote:

So what's the consensus on soloing the North Chimney vs using the Chasm Rappels?

It's been beaten to death in other threads, but the general consensus is move quickly and and don't drop rocks on other parties, regardless your approach.

The Chasm View raps tend to drop rocks right of the N Chim, on Babies R Us.  You have to hike up there and then lose that altitude, so unless bivying in the Boulderfield they don't make a ton of sense to me.

I used to be a rapid proponent of soloing the N Chim but have settled personally on simulclimbing as my preferred strategy, and have taken care to observe how the rope interacts with loose areas and how to directionalize against the risk of dropping rocks.

Soloing cuts your margin to zero in a place where you simply don't control all the variables.

E Fwrote:

I do take some issue with this. I don’t see anything wrong with simply asking what a climb of that caliber entails. I figured it would be a good idea to get some real opinions as opposed to some articles online or something. I’ve learned a lot from this thread, which is what I was hoping for. 

I'm on your side on this one.  MauryB's comment is sort of an old trope:  that if you have to ask if you're qualified to do something, then you're by definition unqualified.  (I don't know MauryB but took  a quick look at his profile before posting--he's obviously a much stronger climber than I am or ever was, and not trying to belittle him, just disagree with his point.)

Lots of good advice on this thread, but at least some of it seems over the top, and some of that comes from very strong climbers (again, much better than me).  But they may be approaching this somewhat differently than I did:  for example, thinking of routes other than the Casual (all the others are significantly harder, could debate Pervertical I suppose, but it's def quite a bit harder), in marginal conditions, and/or with the typical summer weather forecast (which is pretty bad).

Wait until it's dry, do it on a very warm day high-pressure day (maybe only a few those days each year, or maybe a pretty good number, depends on the year), and your biggest challenge is likely to be other people.  One caveat that's been discussed:  the N. Chimney is loose and dangerous, especially dangerous to those below other climbers.  I don't have a great solution to that one, other than agree with others that you should have experience moving very carefully over dangerously loose rock; this should not be your first-time on somewhat-easy-but-loose alpine rock.  I don't have experience with the Chasm view raps.

I am not at all suggesting that unqualified people go up the Diamond, just noting that some of the advice on this thread seems inconsistent with the actual skills necessary to competently do the Casual Route on an in-season high-pressure day.  If you and your partner are in very good overall shape including at altitude, can competently lead trad 5.10 and quickly lead 5.9 and below (don't even consider gym ratings or even sport ratings) including on some spicy terrain (consider the traverse pitch), have good-multi-pitch skills, and can safely negotiate the N. Chimney, you can do it.  Seems like a lot of people over-estimate their actual trad skills and/or how exhausted they will be at altitude.  There is also exhaustion related to getting up super early and hiking in (if you do in c2c) or bivying in touch conditions (some people sleep a lot better than others).

A final thing to consider when evaluating other people's advice.  Whether consciously or not, many if not most active Diamond climbers would prefer to see fewer other climbers on the Diamond and especially would rather see fewer less experienced climbers.  I get their point of view and agree with it to some extent.  It may well be that a permit system of sorts would be an improvement over the current anyone-can-do-WTF-they want system.  But the upshot is you may get some "advice" that is just as directed to getting you to go somewhere else as it is to get you up the Diamond.

E Fwrote:

I do take some issue with this. I don’t see anything wrong with simply asking what a climb of that caliber entails. I figured it would be a good idea to get some real opinions as opposed to some articles online or something. I’ve learned a lot from this thread, which is what I was hoping for. 

Quite the contrary, I was responding to highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion. I commend you for seeking advice rather than thrust yourself into a situation unprepared. However, I do think the uncertainty about your readiness is belied in the question itself, so as others have said go build your confidence and experience on less serious, consequential objectives. Not only are those routes a hell of a time in their own right, it will make climbing the Diamond and other big routes more enjoyable. 

Do I think the Diamond is overcrowded with climbers out of their depth who see it as a fine objective for their Mattel "My First Alpine Climb?" Absolutely. Does that mean all less experienced climbers than I should stay away? Absolutely not. The mountains belong to all of us, but set yourself up for success.

MauryBwrote:

Quite the contrary, I was responding to highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion. I commend you for seeking advice rather than thrust yourself into a situation unprepared. However, I do think the uncertainty about your readiness is belied in the question itself, so as others have said go build your confidence and experience on less serious, consequential objectives. Not only are those routes a hell of a time in their own right, it will make climbing the Diamond and other big routes more enjoyable. 

Do I think the Diamond is overcrowded with climbers out of their depth who see it as a fine objective for their Mattel "My First Alpine Climb?" Absolutely. Does that mean all less experienced climbers than I should stay away? Absolutely not. The mountains belong to all of us, but set yourself up for success.

Gotcha, understood. Just wanted to clarify that I was not looking for validation per se, just more info/advice. I agree that I’d like to set myself up for success and not cause a shitshow up there. Thanks

pfwein Weinbergwrote:

Wait until it's dry, do it on a very warm day high-pressure day (maybe only a few those days each year, or maybe a pretty good number, depends on the year)..

I ran from 2 second flash-to-crash lightning two seasons ago in blinding hail on a 10% chance of storms day in the midst of a high pressure period, and that same storm struck and nearly killed a friend of mine not a mile from where we were (base of Hallett).  And I've climbed in bluebird conditions on 70% days.  

* resumes beating dead horse *

I just think that your best insurance is a deep foundation of alpine experience to draw on, to move quickly and safely despite whatever unexpected BS the mountain throws your way.

do you want to climb the Diamond, or do you want to climb some pitches in the middle of it?  

Rapping in is lame (for multiple reasons).  Climb the Chimney and the Forest Finish.  Set that the meter for your level of preparedness.

TLDR - subtract 1 full number from your 80+% single pitch OS for long routes - done - you'll likely have the endurance, speed and general wherewithal.  Casual is mostly 8-9, a little 10a.  Get your OS on a similar medium up to 11a - good to go.  As you get better, you can try long routes closer to your RP.  Mostly - don't listen to a bunch of insecure assholes and noobs tell you what you can climb - go find out for yourself.

Stileswrote:

do you want to climb the Diamond, or do you want to climb some pitches in the middle of it?  

Rapping in is lame (for multiple reasons).  Climb the Chimney and the Forest Finish.  Set that the meter for your level of preparedness.

Rapping from the Chasm View raps is awesome! The Causual Route starts at Broadway, as do all of the other routes on the upper diamond. Who cares what way you get to Broadway? You could climb Lamb's Slide if you wanted to. In any case, no one cares what you do. You do U.

Kevin Strickerwrote:

Send Casual in late June before the masses.

If you do that, be prepared to climb through a lot of running water on the way up, particularly on the P3 traverse, which is not closely protected.
You will also likely belay in a snowbank atop P4, which may or may not be stable.

Tony Bwrote:

If you do that, be prepared to climb through a lot of running water on the way up, particularly on the P3 traverse, which is not closely protected.
You will also likely belay in a snowbank atop P4, which may or may not be stable.

And to have to climb the snow mushroom at base of 5.8 dihedral. It was there until mid July this last year. It's quite spooky to climb across it. I have photos I believe of it shrinking in size from early June. Ill try and find them