To post or not to post?

I'll just drop this off here:

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/114480036/should-i-keep-it-secret?page=5#ForumMessage-114498298

Gumby boy kingwrote:

I'll just drop this off here:

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/114480036/should-i-keep-it-secret?page=5#ForumMessage-114498298

Thats 100% a different scenario that what this thread is about. I absolutely hate the "look at my secret crag" crowd. That happens a LOT on social media right now and its part of the reason I'm pissed. Some dude rolls into a small, forgotten place and posts an instagram bomb of one of the classics and suddenly everybody and their dog is chomping at the bit to go. Maybe in MT, parts of WY, WA, and some other states, that's not the case. But where I live, its an increasingly common phenomenon. 

C Gwrote:

Thats 100% a different scenario that what this thread is about. I absolutely hate the "look at my secret crag" crowd. That happens a LOT on social media right now and its part of the reason I'm pissed. Some dude rolls into a small, forgotten place and posts an instagram bomb of one of the classics and suddenly everybody and their dog is chomping at the bit to go. Maybe in MT, parts of WY, WA, and some other states, that's not the case. But where I live, its an increasingly common phenomenon. 

Maybe its time to get off the gram braji? the world is a better place without it.....

Before MP, we used to get a slow drip of pictures and articles about new areas from Rock and Ice and Climbing. But without the Beta.

Just pictures of the big names climbing at the new, undisclosed area. It was frustrating af. Good marketing for the magazines though. 

A buddy of mine figured out where Wild Iris was during the Summer the magazines kept teasing us with pictures of Skinner, Piana and Heidi Badaracco on this white limestone with aspen tress. To this day I don't know how he did it.

So that Fall we roadtripped to it. No beta, but went right to it. As we were touring around, we encounted Skinner by himself. He was stunned some dudes had foynd his secret.

He also was holding an armful of Antelope legs. So after the initial discussion about who we were, etc, my other buddy pointed to the Antelope legs and asked wtf that was all about.

Skinner lit up. 

"I've got some Frenchies up here. They're sending all of my routes. So, I go around and stick these in the pockets. They fucking hate that". Then we all busted up laughing. 

I sure hope the days of secret crags aren't done.

CDubwrote:

The older I get, the less time I want to spend driving + hiking to climbs. I mean, I love big alpine adventures, but you can't do them every day. Driving 2 hours each way used to be a routine day trip, but it gets really tiring if I do it all the time. If work forces you to live in a relatively major population center (as it does for most of us who physically can't work remotely), it feels like there aren't any places left that haven't been discovered, promoted, priced-up, and crowded-out. If you put any constraints on the what/where, choices get narrow really fast. Want bigger mountains, BLM/NF land, and open non-residential space in the lower 48? ~11 states. Need good access for skiing and ice? Vegas, all of AZ, and most of NM is out. Need semi-major cities for work? Cancel the vast majority of MT, ID, and WY, plus large, interesting parts of WA, OR, UT, NV and CO.

It's tough to strike a balance in where to live/work where the crags and slopes aren't stuffed with people every weekend -- and if your goals include routes that are bigger, safer, easier, and on higher quality rock, the challenges multiply. It used to be that weekdays were a partial solution, but that doesn't even really work anymore. Am I overemphasizing it somewhat? Certainly - I still get out and have fun, and occasionally it isn't too busy. But I wanted to refute the perennial argument of "there's plenty of rock in the world that hasn't even been discovered yet" -- that may be factually true but irrelevant to individual situations.

It's tough to be the kind of person who loves routes like Cat In the Hat in 2020.

Sounds like you need to become a dirtbag.

Real talk tho, Washington has plenty of undiscovered crags, big mountains, open space, and skiing/ice within the vicinity of Seattle. Nothing as clean/big as Yosemite maybe but it looks like you're looking for perfection here, and you ain't gonna find that.

caughtinside wrote:

Ah yes, the search for 5 star roadside uncrowded multi pitch.

Let me tell you about a place called Tuesday. 

I've been out on a lot of Tuesdays, and in 2020, it barely helps. In places like the front range, and especially post-COVID, there's a ton of people with flexible work. There's people here employed by Silicon Valley who work remote and travel the country climbing out of a van. Weekdays are a bit less crowded, but it's only as good as rewinding to weekends circa 2005-2010. And if you're at a destination climbing area (you know, the 5 star multi-pitch that people travel from all over the US/world for) like Red Rocks, Yosemite, etc -- weekdays don't matter one bit because people are there on vacation to climb the same routes you traveled there for, and that's on top of the local and regional day-trippers, vanlifers, etc. So the solutions are pretty much:

1. Be born 30 years earlier and retired from climbing in populated areas in the age of Instagram and MP
2. Be independently wealthy and retired from working while young, for vanlife climbing flexibility
3. Hope there's a massive cultural movement towards VR games and away from the outdoors
4. Climb ho-hum routes, scary runouts, choss or wait in line
5. Bitch about it on the internet because the other options didn't work out well for you

CDubwrote:

I've been out on a lot of Tuesdays, and in 2020, it barely helps. In places like the front range, and especially post-COVID, there's a ton of people with flexible work. There's people here employed by Silicon Valley who work remote and travel the country climbing out of a van. Weekdays are a bit less crowded, but it's only as good as rewinding to weekends circa 2005-2010. And if you're at a destination climbing area (you know, the 5 star multi-pitch that people travel from all over the US/world for) like Red Rocks, Yosemite, etc -- weekdays don't matter one bit because people are there on vacation to climb the same routes you traveled there for, and that's on top of the local and regional day-trippers, vanlifers, etc. So the solutions are pretty much:

1. Be born 30 years earlier and retired from climbing in populated areas in the age of Instagram and MP
2. Be independently wealthy and retired from working while young, for vanlife climbing flexibility
3. Hope there's a massive cultural movement towards VR games and away from the outdoors
4. Climb ho-hum routes, scary runouts, choss or wait in line
5. Bitch about it on the internet because the other options didn't work out well for you

Dude if you live in Boulder and can't find rock you enjoy climbing that's entirely on you lol

W Kwrote:

Dude if you live in Boulder and can't find rock you enjoy climbing that's entirely on you lol

Of course I can, but 1) CO isn't known for the huge, easy rock I find really compelling, like Vegas. 2) absolutely everywhere is crowded now - any region with a major metro area, and 3) I'm just trying to make a point about the state of climbing in the 21st century with social media and 2-3x the population as in the "golden age" of climbing.

I get out plenty. I also bitch plenty. I don't see any conflict here. You'd be saying the same thing if I lived in any of the other places I've lived in (and so would I).

EDIT: And just looking at your tickist, you look like a vanlifer. Nothing wrong with that, but the picture is a lot rosier when you have a lot of time/flexibility to spend in different prime destinations for weeks or months and seize opportunities to climb the classics. You've climbed extensively in at least 4 states in the last few months. That kind of reach beats Boulder any day of the week.

CDubwrote:

Of course I can, but 1) CO isn't known for the huge, easy rock I find really compelling, like Vegas. 2) absolutely everywhere is crowded now - any region with a major metro area, and 3) I'm just trying to make a point about the state of climbing in the 21st century with social media and 2-3x the population as in the "golden age" of climbing.

I get out plenty. I also bitch plenty. I don't see any conflict here. You'd be saying the same thing if I lived in any of the other places I've lived in (and so would I).

EDIT: And just looking at your tickist, you look like a vanlifer. Nothing wrong with that, but the picture is a lot rosier when you have a lot of time/flexibility to spend in different prime destinations for weeks or months and seize opportunities to climb the classics. You've climbed extensively in at least 4 states in the last few months. That kind of reach beats Boulder any day of the week.

No van but I'm definitely doing it for the social media. See ya at the bastille crack   

In all seriousness though, you're complaining that people want to climb the same rock you want to, because as you said it's known for being good. You are not any better than these people regardless of whether or not theyre gumbies or watched free solo or whatever. You either need to compromise (get up early, walk literally 60 minutes, settle for a 3 star route, etc.) or accept that you are not special and have to wait in line. 

You live in an incredibly privileged area with insane access to many different types of rock and styles of climbing

W Kwrote:

No van but I'm definitely doing it for the social media. See ya at the bastille crack   

In all seriousness though, you're complaining that people want to climb the same rock you want to, because as you said it's known for being good. You are not any better than these people regardless of whether or not theyre gumbies or watched free solo or whatever. You either need to compromise (get up early, walk literally 60 minutes, settle for a 3 star route, etc.) or accept that you are not special and have to wait in line. 

I'm just making a statement that it's too crowded, I'm not making any judgements about the people or their relative deservingness to climb. Part of the point I'm making is that the "old tricks" often don't work anymore - weekdays, long approaches, longer drives, get out early - you can do all the right things and still run into crowds. I joked that you practically have to get to some routes at midnight on a Wednesday, out of season. There are some epic routes that I've attempted 2-4 times -- on a weekday at like 4:30am -- and ended up not getting to climb at all after parties in front would have pushed our finish time out to bad weather or nightfall. One I finally got up on a 5th attempt. Another one I think is impossible without bivying at the base or soloing unacceptably-risky approach pitches. Point is, it's dramatically different (and worse) in almost every way than it was 15-20 years ago. You can be an optimist about the worsening, but that doesn't mean it isn't shitty. It's epically shitty to do an alpine start, do a long approach, and find out you're not going to get to climb the route. That seriously happens these days. It's happened to me more often than I'd like. It discourages me from doing that kind of thing in the future.

You live in an incredibly privileged area with insane access to many different types of rock and styles of climbing

And that's why I moved here. But to borrow from the meme thread...

CDubsy is just doing this weird combination of needless bitching and being self-aware about it. Sounds like he needs to get off MP and thrash some choss.

CDubwrote:

How many of those routes are well-protected, moderate classics on clean, superb-quality rock? How many are 5+ pitches? 10+ pitches? 25+ pitches? How many of those are reasonable day-trip driving distance from a place where jobs can easily be found and housing is affordable? There is a finite, and even tiny quantity of truly great rock out there. Maybe you're not at all picky. Maybe you climb really hard. Maybe you're content to boulder or climb diminutive single-pitch routes. For people who want to climb big, safe, classic routes at a lower difficulty, there's usually a lot of competition.

I find it notable that your attitude seems to perfectly encapsulate the very problem you're complaining about. 

caughtinside wrote:

If you can find joy in the climbs others don’t want to do, the world is your oyster. 

Hmm, CDubs did say he likes "big" climbs.  Might I suggest Vedauwoo?  Plenty of "big" climbs with little approach that won't be crowded there!

CDubwrote:

How many of those routes are well-protected, moderate classics on clean, superb-quality rock? How many are 5+ pitches? 10+ pitches? 25+ pitches? How many of those are reasonable day-trip driving distance from a place where jobs can easily be found and housing is affordable? There is a finite, and even tiny quantity of truly great rock out there. Maybe you're not at all picky. Maybe you climb really hard. Maybe you're content to boulder or climb diminutive single-pitch routes. For people who want to climb big, safe, classic routes at a lower difficulty, there's usually a lot of competition.

I think it's worth re-evaluating assumptions about the quantity of climbing. For some, it's limitless. But not everyone is after the same thing.

This is both a hilarious and infuriating first world complaint that's mind-bendingly difficult to sympathize with. Imagine that, there are other climbers who also want to climb the most classic routes on the planet! Did you think you were the only one who wants or deserves to climb them? Imagine how much time you wasted not climbing 5 star routes too crowded to get on because you didn't climb the 2, 3 or 4 star routes you walked right on by with your nose in the air. My hat is off to every climber who simply likes to climb and has no problem doing routes that aren't 5 star crowded classics, therefore spreading out the crowds and keeping outdoor climbing sustainable.  And, you know, climbing for the soul and experience of it.

bryanswrote:

This is both a hilarious and infuriating first world complaint that's mind-bendingly difficult to sympathize with.

If you live in the first world, I think it's perfectly acceptable to complain about first-world problems.

I didn't get into this thread to start a bunch of back-and-forth with people who want to make fun of me for saying every decade brings exponentially more crowding - and that subjectively, that sucks. I made a few points that I thought were accurate and some people agreed. If you don't think my points are valid, that's fine - I'm not going to waste any more time litigating them.

bryanswrote: Imagine how much time you wasted not climbing 5 star routes too crowded to get on because you didn't climb the 2, 3 or 4 star routes you walked right on by with your nose in the air.

That's the thing - this caricature of me that you have in your mind about me passing up low-quality routes is bullshit. I've climbed a ton of less-than-notable single-pitch moderate routes and had a good enough time. What have I learned? They're just fine for an average cragging day. But I want absolutely nothing to do with the gobs of loose rock found on most 1 and 2-star big routes. That shit isn't worth your life. So it's not just a superficial preference for quality; I can't climb all that hard, I like getting really high off the deck, and I think safety is non-negotiable.

CDubs, can you give specific examples of times and places when you were crowded out of a route?  For me that would give some weight to the overcrowding argument.  Are there specific routes out there that were just that much easier to get on a few decades ago?

I don't disagree with your points about capitalism, overpopulation or crowded touristy places.  However in my experience, well - I can climb just fine in places like Eldo and Boulder Canyon on weekends, some of the crowdiest ares I know of.  I might not get on the route I want, but there are plenty to go around.  I can also hike out to say, Greyrock, and be alone on the wall on the multi of my choice.  I'm guessing you must be after big, popular and highly rated multis in RMNP or something while I'm just out having fun on whatever rock with my friends and trying to get a little stronger/more experienced along the way.

Who knows, maybe I'll start doing bigger things in RMNP myself someday and then I'll be complaining about the crowds too!

Nathan Sullivanwrote:

CDubs, can you give specific examples of times and places when you were crowded out of a route?  For me that would give some weight to the overcrowding argument.  Are there specific routes out there that were just that much easier to get on a few decades ago?

I don't disagree with your points about capitalism, overpopulation or crowded touristy places.  However in my experience, well - I can climb just fine in places like Eldo and Boulder Canyon on weekends, some of the crowdiest ares I know of.  I might not get on the route I want, but there are plenty to go around.  I can also hike out to say, Greyrock, and be alone on the wall on the multi of my choice.  I'm guessing you must be after big, popular and highly rated multis in RMNP or something while I'm just out having fun on whatever rock with my friends and trying to get a little stronger/more experienced along the way.

Who knows, maybe I'll start doing bigger things in RMNP myself someday and then I'll be complaining about the crowds too!

The everyday local cragging can be a problem too, but it's far more manageable and less frustrating because if it's fucked you can just leave without a huge time investment. It's also harder if you don't/can't climb hard (or your SO can't). If it's easy sport in the front range, the crags with high-density 2-star single-pitch 5.8s are crowded on a weekday. If it's ice cragging, the resource is so limited compared to the crowds that it can feel unmanageable. But the main gripe that I don't know how to manage is the stuff you can't plan around because it has a super long approach with a mandatory alpine start, or involves traveling to climb somewhere that would be a vacation for you or other people. If it's like most 1-3 pitch routes, who cares -- you'll get a chance eventually. If the route is big, being # anything of 5+ parties sucks, whether you're at the front or the back of the line.

The ones that come to mind are the large, moderate routes that everybody knows about and are notoriously crowded. Routes I've specifically had problems on multiple times (or in a some cases anticipate problems and have been avoiding): the Casual Route, Moonlight Buttress (aid), almost anything at Lover's Leap, Ancient Art, Castleton, Bastille Crack (if you aren't local), West Crack @ DAFF, Crimson Chrysalis, Birdland, Epinephrine, Cat in the Hat, Snake Dike, Royal Arches, The Black Dike -- and obviously stuff like The Nose or RNWF, but I might be a full generation too late for that. Can you suffer the crowds with a smile, or get lucky and get on these routes? Absolutely. But it's harder now than it ever was. And it sucks to have fast parties behind jockeying to pass, or to be a party in the middle hoping to pass a super slow party. IMO it really detracts from the total climbing experience to have the social distractions and pressure of being delayed or delaying somebody else. I want to go out and have a vertical adventure in a natural setting, not experience the rock gym scene transplanted into a national park.

Am I a total crank for feeling that way? Is it "entitled" to complain that the combination of large+easy+safe+quality is crowded to the point of having a bad experience or not getting to climb? It's pretty obvious that at some point in the past you could have done these routes with minimal or manageable competition, and that is increasingly not the case. I feel like it's totally reasonable to be frustrated about that.

Maybe that gripe is so captain-obvious for MP that some feel the need to point fingers and say "get a load of this guy", but I'm just saying it wasn't always as bad as it's gotten. Bottom line: when the crowds ARE the crux, it fucking sucks. It literally ruins the experience. I'd appreciate not being flamed for that observation, but I understand.

CDubwrote:

Am I a total crank for feeling that way? Is it "entitled" to complain that the combination of large+easy+safe+quality is crowded to the point of having a bad experience or not getting to climb? It's pretty obvious that at some point in the past you could have done these routes with minimal or manageable competition, and that is increasingly not the case. I feel like it's totally reasonable to be frustrated about that.

Maybe that gripe is so captain-obvious for MP that some feel the need to point fingers and say "get a load of this guy", but I'm just saying it wasn't always as bad as it's gotten. Bottom line: when the crowds ARE the crux, it fucking sucks. It literally ruins the experience. I'd appreciate not being flamed for that observation, but I understand.

Sorry you've been getting crowded off your routes. But yes, I do think it is both entitled and hypocritical for you to complain about the crowds when you are the crowds. These routes are crowded because they are full of people similar to you who want easy, clean, well-protected, routes that are known to be good. Just because you started climbing before them, does not mean that they should not be allowed to get into climbing. I can understand the frustration that you didn't have to wait in the past, but you do have to wait now and your options are either accept that, compromise, or lower your standards to climbing the thousands of other routes that are also good to classic quality, but not as well known.

W Kwrote:

Sorry you've been getting crowded off your routes. But yes, I do think it is both entitled and hypocritical for you to complain about the crowds when you are the crowds. These routes are crowded because they are full of people similar to you who want easy, clean, well-protected, routes that are known to be good. Just because you started climbing before them, does not mean that they should not be allowed to get into climbing. I can understand the frustration that you didn't have to wait in the past, but you do have to wait now and your options are either accept that, compromise, or lower your standards to climbing the thousands of other routes that are also good to classic quality, but not as well known.

Other people have put time, money, and effort in to developing and maintaining these routes for people like you and you still feel entitled to them

I've said multiple times now that I don't feel more deserving than anyone else. You can "you're not in traffic, you are traffic" me all you want -- I'm just saying that traffic fucking sucks. I'm not responsible for overpopulation or overpopularity, I just happen to live at a time when those things are a problem. Maybe the issue is that I like people in certain doses, but don't like having no control over how many or how much. Having reiterated various arguments many times at this point, with a few people repeatedly trying to argue against points I didn't make, I'm going to stop replying to this thread now.

EDIT: People like WK seem to think it's a crime against society to have socially-introverted tendencies in some dimension. I know lots of people IRL who feel the same way as I do (several of whom lived through an era where it was common to climb massive classics without competition) they just don't argue about it on MP.

CDubwrote:

I'm not responsible for overpopulation or overpopularity, I just happen to live in a time when those things are a problem

Yeah dude other people are always the problem, it's never you   . Go queue up for the bastille. The rest of eldo is choss-garbage, trust me

Oh shit man, you didn't mention you have socially-introverted tendencies. Shit, have my place in line. Us Coloradans together can declare war on overpopulation!