Inclusivity in climbing

Offered without comment:

https://www.cpr.org/2020/12/05/this-new-rock-climbing-route-in-staunton-state-park-champions-inclusivity-in-the-outdoors/

First off here’s the link that works

https://www.cpr.org/2020/12/05/this-new-rock-climbing-route-in-staunton-state-park-champions-inclusivity-in-the-outdoors/

Second, what?

Dumbest statement in the article:

"It’s not surprising that sport climbing routes are geared toward white men’s bodies"

Way cool, thanks for sharing this. 

For those of you that don't like it, what do you suggest people do if they don't like the development style in an area for whatever reason? These ladies are out there putting up their own routes in the style they want, which is rad. If you don't like it don't climb the route.

As an old, fat white guy, I can attest that climbing is not very inclusive.  Rock routes above 5.10 in difficulty have a negative disparate impact on my demographic.  Same goes for competitions.  I can count on no hands the number of old fat white guys participating.  So for me, it's very alienating,  It's the main reason why I have decided not to compete in these competitions.  There's no way I could fight against such obvious systemic oppression.  

This is a huge injustice, and needs to be addressed, right now.  

Eric Chabotwrote:

Way cool, thanks for sharing this. 

For those of you that don't like it, what do you suggest people do if they don't like the development style in an area for whatever reason? These ladies are out there putting up their own routes in the style they want, which is rad. If you don't like it don't climb the route.

Exactly. If you don’t like 12ft spacing between bolts, I certainly don’t in certain situations, don’t climb the line, better yet don’t blame someone else for your shortcomings.
If I was someone that didn’t climb and read this article I would think that either white guys are manufacturing routes on rock to suit their physique or God must be white and male so he made rocks to favor white males. Making a promise that route development is gender/race  biased is a long stretch by any means.

Rocks don’t discriminate.

Good article, a few important takeaways:

1. A 12 foot runout is not acceptable at any time, in any place.  That’s why I always rack a rocpec, and it has paid off on numerous occasions, notably on the Bachar-Yerian. 

2. Whoever sets those outdoor sport routes should be ashamed of themselves.  There’s no reason to create a route harder than 5.7

Scotty D wrote:

You guys are so fragile it's embarrassing to watch. 

That works both ways! Right back atcha. 

I think it's important to consider that those who are dwelling on the "god made climbing for white men" argument in this article are really missing the point.

Consider it more as a group that is under represented trying to navigate a sport that has long ignored/oppressed them. If you are not focusing and trying to be supportive of them navigating their own path in development, you should really reevaluate the fact that the only thing you took away from that article is a single mention that they acknowledge that white men are taller than women of color.

To that comment that rocks don't discriminate, yeah well no duh, but climbers being gatekeep-y to under represented groups is discriminatory and is not productive to the sustainability of our sport.

Fehim Hasecicwrote:

Exactly. If you don’t like 12ft spacing between bolts, I certainly don’t in certain situations, don’t climb the line, better yet don’t blame someone else for your shortcomings.
If I was someone that didn’t climb and read this article I would think that either white guys are manufacturing routes on rock to suit their physique or God must be white and male so he made rocks to favor white males. Making a promise that route development is gender/race  biased is a long stretch by any means.

Rocks don’t discriminate.

This is great to hear! When I climb with my short wife, I found that there are some scrunch moves she can do easily, and I just can't pull. But it turns out I was wrong!

Same with some of the reach-y moves I can cruise and she hangs on. There's no way for a route to fit one body type more than another, so clearly she just isn't believing in herself. "Think taller thoughts, the internet says a 6 foot wingspan is the same as a 5 foot one!"

It's clearly not the case that people set up sport routes based on what they find fun to climb. Bolts are just drilled at random into indiscriminate rock.

Spoken like true gumbies

Jack Yipwrote:

 you should really reevaluate the fact that the only thing you took away from that article is a single mention that they acknowledge that white men are taller than women of color.

I agree that the main issue is bolt-placement outdoors (and perhaps routesetting indoors).  But why not say "men are generally taller than women" instead of saying "white men are taller than women of color?"  How does skin pigment correlate with height?

I'm not challenging Jackson's post, just curious as to how white men is more incisive than just saying men?  In the US, black women and white women both average about 5'4".

John RBwrote:

I agree that the main issue is bolt-placement outdoors (and perhaps routesetting indoors).  But why not say "men are generally taller than women" instead of saying "white men are taller than women of color?"  How does skin pigment correlate with height?

I'm not challenging Jackson's post, just curious as to how white men is more incisive than just saying men?  In the US, black women and white women both average about 5'4".

Once again, that's literally the least important part of that article. I'm sorry I really have to address the phrase 'white men' vs. just 'men,' but, the reason for the phrasing is to acknowledge the overshadowing history of white male climbers, and draw new light towards the racial change that these women are trying to bring to the sport.

FrankPSwrote:

Dumbest statement in the article:

"It’s not surprising that sport climbing routes are geared toward white men’s bodies"

I really want someone to tell me what a route that is geared toward “black men’s bodies” would be like, while also avoiding racial stereotypes.

And yeah, to state the obvious, most routes are a bit harder for short people. 

SinRopa wrote:

Just wait until they get into trad.  I'm interested to hear more about this discriminatory and racist route setter named Mother Nature.

Right? I mean, having different hand sizes has never made some routes easier or harder. A 10b crack is objectively a 10b crack, no matter if that's hands or rattly fingers for you. No way smaller climbers would find some "classics" thrutchy, and some "awful" climbs to be classics. Nothing like a crack to really hit home the fact that the shape of a climber's body doesn't matter at all.

Oh, and this article really needs to get woke up out of the dark ages and clarify that climbing has long favored "white CIS males."  Geez.

I'm all for new routes!  I don't care who you are or what your motivation is, put 'em up however you want!!  If it looks fun and achievable, I'll climb it, otherwise, I'll move on. 

Seems to me the max perceived difference between someone who's 5' versus say 7' is what, 4' on the whip. Of course the actual difference is 0' but whatever. I'm all for more people climbing - any gender, any race. Let's get out there!

Why is everything about race and gender these days?

Oh and... is 12' really that far? What's the typical bolt spacing (outdoors) anyway? Indoors seems to be about 6'. Outdoor bolting seems to be about 2x that typically - but maybe that's just my perception.

Pnelsonwrote:

I really want someone to tell me what a route that is geared toward “black men’s bodies” would be like, while also avoiding racial stereotypes.

And yeah, to state the obvious, most routes are a bit harder for short people. 

So here's an easy one from a few weeks back. Out running with my buddy, he tweaks his ankle near the end of the trail. Not a bad twist, but he's not running on it any more. We got about 2 miles along the road to get back to the car, so I figure we'll just hitch a ride.

He really doesn't want to, we're a bit off the beaten path, not a lot of cars. I convince him I've hitched plenty in the area, no problem. Sure enough, first car pulls over, I explain the situation, but they look hesitant. Totally fine, it's two women, reasonable to be nervous. I ask if they can just take my friend back; he can get off his ankle and I'll run the rest of the way. No go. They will take me back to our car though. So I go to the car and drive it back while my buddy waits on the side of the road.

Now I'm a good 6 inches taller and broader than my buddy, and can't figure out what the problem is. It takes getting back to my friend before he explains the problem is just that I'm white and he's not. In my life, where we live, if I get hurt on a trail, I go hitch a ride. I've been in that situation before, it's never been a problem. In his life, in the same place, if he gets hurt on a trail, he ends up having to limp back. That's been his experience.  

That isn't a big difference, most of the time no one gets hurt. But it does change your risk tolerance. Not a lot, but a little. And that's just the little extra inconvenience of limping back to a car. How about if one group is twice as likely to not have medical insurance as another? I've been insured and I've been uninsured, and I'd be lying if I didn't say the added financial cost of a fall makes me more wary of runouts.

Edit for response to John:

1. Runouts aren't measured in feet, they're measured in consequence. The consequence of the same injury is different for different lives. It MAY be (and I don't know, as I'm not in that situation) that the average non-white climber will have less risk tolerance on runouts than the average white climber. Certainly when we choose which trail to run now, I get that my friend has a different experience of the risk of an injury than I do.

2. Pickups are a thing.

JonasMRwrote:

So here's an easy one from a few weeks back. Out running with my buddy, he tweaks his ankle near the end of the trail. Not a bad twist, but he's not running on it any more. We got about 2 miles along the road to get back to the car, so I figure we'll just hitch a ride.

He really doesn't want to, we're a bit off the beaten path, not a lot of cars. I convince him I've hitched plenty in the area, no problem. Sure enough, first car pulls over, I explain the situation, but they look hesitant. Totally fine, it's two women, reasonable to be nervous. I ask if they can just take my friend back; he can get off his ankle and I'll run the rest of the way. No go. They will take me back to our car though. So I go to the car and drive it back while my buddy waits on the side of the road.

Now I'm a good 6 inches taller and broader than my buddy, and can't figure out what the problem is. It takes getting back to my friend before he explains the problem is just that I'm white and he's not. In my life, where we live, if I get hurt on a trail, I go hitch a ride. I've been in that situation before, it's never been a problem. In his life, in the same place, if he gets hurt on a trail, he ends up having to limp back. That's been his experience.  

That isn't a big difference, most of the time no one gets hurt. But it does change your risk tolerance. Not a lot, but a little. And that's just the little extra inconvenience of limping back to a car. How about if one group is twice as likely to not have medical insurance as another? I've been insured and I've been uninsured, and I'd be lying if I didn't say the added financial cost of a fall makes me more wary of runouts.

Two thoughts:

1. How does "trouble getting a ride while hitchhiking" answer the question you were responding to? ("What would a route look like if it were made for black male bodies?")
2. You were hitchhiking during a pandemic?  (Why not jog 2 miles back and get the car?)

E MuuDwrote:

Why is everything about race and gender these days?

Bingo.  

Racist rock climbing routes and racist rock climbers! They're everywhere. Ha ha.

Auden Alsop wrote:

...financial ruin should they have to go to the hospital... 

Actually that might be an even better example (for Jonas' point about runouts) than hitching a ride.