Dirtbagging, Disappointment, and Depression

Pnelson wrote:

but just look at all those vapid inspirational posters that use climbing and other outdoor sports as metaphors for success.

Christopher Smaling wrote: Rock climbing is cool.

Living in your car to climb is cool.  

Being a washed out 50 year old who will never relive their glory days and didn’t plan for retirement or old age is very not cool.

Yup.  Seen quite a few folks that thought those of us slaving 5 days a week in a cube were lame, while they were climbing 200 days/year.  Then they hit their 50s and the reality sank in.  None  committed suicide though. Yet.

It takes money to grow old comfortably.

edit: but this begs the question: what is the relative suicide rate for people who pursue high risk sports (climbing, ext. skiing, base jumping, squirrel suiting etc.)

Reitrement planning isn't quite predicated on how carefully you plan - and is more predicated on how much money you earn.

Ya think?

I found it interesting that they claim dopamine increases at altitude.   Makes sense in an odd way.

Artem Vasilyev wrote:

Well, if we compare to other countries with similiar (or even less) GDP per capita - you'd see that we generally have the some of worst social safety nets for our elderly. Reitrement planning isn't quite predicated on how carefully you plan - and is more predicated on how much money you earn. Speaking as somebody who works an office job in finance, I can gaurentee you that the outcomes for my cohort will be much better than for school teachers - despite us not necessarily doing much to contribute to society at large. 

Basically, if you're in with the right crowd in the U.S. - you very much so get to pluck a nice retirement from the money tree. If you're not in with the right crowd and get hit with illness or something of that nature... you're kinda fucked.

Leave then. 

Long Ranger

That is funny!  Thanks for the levity.

grog m wrote:

Leave then. 

You argue on the internet very poorly.

Thread spiraling towards the talus.

Well if all you are going to do is whine and complain, and you think you can get a better deal elsewhere then why are you here??

Especially someone who "doesn't contribute much to society". See ya. 

Dave K wrote: The US is in the middle of the pack when it comes to GDP expenditure on social safety nets: http://www.oecd.org/els/soc/OECD2019-Social-Expenditure-Update.pdf

The US system does have more bias toward personal savings than many European countries, but government contribution to safety nets in the US is still very significant (about half of all government spending.) Many of the countries with more generous programs are at risk of taking on unsustainable levels of debt to fund them. There's a pretty good correlation between countries with high spending on safety nets and high levels of debt per capita. (There are exceptions like Norway but almost all of these exceptions have substantial income from oil resources.) The countries that are generous to their elderly are often just borrowing the money from their youth.

Of course if one makes more money they will have more money. But anyone with a decent job can retire in the US if they plan for it along the way. The math is pretty simple: Save 15% of your income, work for 40 years, and anyone in America can retire with an income and lifestyle similar to what they had during their working years. Many people just don't want to make the small sacrifice. Yeah it sucks that we have to work for 40 years, but if you are going to live to be 80 that means you've only had to work half your life. Not bad, really.

That catch for those that want to dirtbag is that the retirement formula requires that we work when you are young, and not work when we are old. That's just the nature of investment returns. I wish there was a way to trade retirement years later in life for dirtbagging years when we are young and healthy, but I don't think anyone has figured out how to do that.

Agree with most of this except your math on 40/80 = half your life. You were put to work at birth? 

Figure most 'mericuns: Graduate HS at age 18. Get a job. Work until 62-67. Die sometime after. Working can take up most of your life. Doesn't sound too fun. 1/3 of your day sleeping, 1/3 working = big bummer. Of course people love to buy shit they don't need. Latest phones. Overpriced food/housing/cars/etc. Good for them. Someone has to buy needless shit to keep stocks going up and benefiting us.

We plan on saving much much more than your average person, and retiring much earlier (figure 50 on the long end). Cutting out even earlier on a dirtbag budget also sounds temping at times, but we'd like to keep housing and medical coverage in our budget.

I think a big part of the problem with dirtbagging/ski town life isn’t just finances, it’s also interpersonal.  A lot of older people end up with a really fragmented, weak social network.  It’s easy to call someone your “best friend” after a couple of days of heady climbing or skiing, but is that the person your going to reach out to when you’re dealing with death, illness, depression, etc?

Irrespective of whether your working or retired, interpersonal relationship matter a lot.  If you don’t invest time/energy/whatever into building lasting relationships, you’re going to be pretty lonely whether you have money or not.

Sitting in a cubicle in an office building five days a week now there is a lifestyle that might cause suicide.

Money. I retired at 53 and climb or fish 200 days a year. Youth is wasted on the young and dumb. Work hard, retire early, enjoy life. 

I'm climbing 13's on a regular basis. At 58. Why? Because I focused on money when I was young and dumb. 

Of course dirt bag and depression go together. Eating out of a dumpster sucks. 

Parachute Adamswrote:

Money. I retired at 53 and climb or fish 200 days a year. Youth is wasted on the young and dumb. Work hard, retire early, enjoy life. 

I'm climbing 13's on a regular basis. At 58. Why? Because I focused on money when I was young and dumb. 

Of course dirt bag and depression go together. Eating out of a dumpster sucks. 

+1 Money.  I lived fast for a bit when I was younger.  Then focused on a well paying career and living below my means.  I am in no way suffering and can buy pretty much whatever I want and am on track to retire by 50.  Then it's climbing, shooting, hiking until I die or can't continue.  Dumpster eating in your 20's is different than in your 50's.  We all have our own paths and can only decide what we want to live with/without.  

I never focused on money and retirement. I fix things for people. I accept that I will work until I can't. Then I will die. NBD.

The key is, will you die with regrets?

I think its important to have some kind of direction in life both financially and in your hobbies.  Work hard and play hard.  Make it count when you're doing either one.  You will have enough money to live comfortably, and enough time to achieve what you want recreationally.  

One thing that's only indirectly mentioned in this post is that, at least in my experience, what makes one sustainably happy isn't simply pleasure, but meaning.

In my early 20s, I traveled the world in a very dirt baggy way for a few years. Great way to do some self and world discovery. But one day it was just not interesting anymore. I was kind of bored with myself and needed to do something more meaningful. 

 While some find this through work and others through hobbies (like climbing) or family, I have found that I need to do something that in some way contributes to society. Simply put, working for money or climbing for myself is all fine, but I am happier if I also feel like I make a difference in some way. In my case this is often through volunteering or sharing skills with others. Selfishly motivated altruism :-) 

And of course finding the elusive balance between all those pursuits and enough time and space to think and be!

fvclimbwrote:

Sitting in a cubicle in an office building five days a week now there is a lifestyle that might cause suicide.

While this is surely true, I think the point of the article - and the discussion more generally - is that mental health struggles are not some localized thing which one can flee if only they find the right pursuit or way to spend their days. Rather the crux of the issue, as it were, is that they often arrive from a constellation of factors, the likes of which make a ski bum or dirtbag potentially just as at risk as an office worker. I often think of that Hemmingway quote from The Sun Also Rises, which says something to the effect of "no matter where you go, you can't get away from yourself"; in this context, tho one might be climbing 200+ days a year and comparatively free from the so-called chains of modern life, our well-being is still determined largely by our social relations and community, access to mental/health resources, economic stability etc. Suicide is a complex thing, and I'm glad that the whole "living the dream" fantasy is being complicated, and that mental health struggles are being more openly discussed.

Riley Weaverwrote:

While this is surely true, I think the point of the article - and the discussion more generally - is that mental health struggles are not some localized thing which one can flee if only they find the right pursuit or way to spend their days. Rather the crux of the issue, as it were, is that they often arrive from a constellation of factors, the likes of which make a ski bum or dirtbag potentially just as at risk as an office worker. I often think of that Hemmingway quote from The Sun Also Rises, which says something to the effect of "no matter where you go, you can't get away from yourself"; in this context, tho one might be climbing 200+ days a year and comparatively free from the so-called chains of modern life, our well-being is still determined largely by our social relations and community, access to mental/health resources, economic stability etc. Suicide is a complex thing, and I'm glad that the whole "living the dream" fantasy is being complicated, and that mental health struggles are being more openly discussed.

Yeah, this is a really good point too. Mental health is a complicated beast. While getting out to the mountains definitely helps me stay sane, no amount of fresh air is enough to address a serious depression (or any other mental illness, I suppose, but have no experience with that... 

Timothy Carlsonwrote:
Article

Came across this on Reddit. I spent several years chasing climbing and the outdoor lifestyle, only to find that it’s not all that it’s portrayed as.
Thoughts? I think this is an important issue, and that there’s a weird pressure to “live the Dream” and conform to an image of an unrealistic lifestyle.