What's up with Rumney Hinterlands!?

Ward Smithwrote:

There are over one million ethnic minorities in China in internment camps.  And people here are thinking that redacting questionably offensive names on MP is actually doing something positive, while we support the Chincoms by buying crap made in China every day. 

Sorry to wake this thread up again, but as one of the few Black people who climbs regularly at Rumney, I feel like I am well placed to offer my perspective on this.

Most people who know me well will tell you that I fall pretty low on the sensitivity spectrum. Even so, I would feel very uncomfortable climbing at a crag called "Slavery Wall," and I would be pretty unhappy to tell someone that I had sent "Happiness in Slavery" (whether or not that name comes from a song). I am far more likely to go climb at that crag now that it has been renamed "Downpour Wall" and will feel much better about ticking "Happiness" than about ticking "Happiness in Slavery." As a result, I challenge your assertion that changing "questionably offensive names" is not doing anything positive. The reality is that those names make it harder for some people to enjoy climbing at certain crags and on certain climbs. By changing names like that, you remove an intangible barrier that keeps minorities out of certain climbing areas. Maybe I'm being selfish, but in my book that's a positive thing. 

Yes, making me and those like me more comfortable at the crag is small potatoes compared to the internment of Uyghurs in China, but being called a "n****r" is also small potatoes compared to the Rwandan genocide. I assume you would still be open to deleting comments that involve that epithet on Mountain project forums? Like removing overtly racist language in an online forum, changing offensive names on MP is a small thing that makes life just a little bit better for underrepresented groups in climbing. I appreciate that FAs are not just a bunch of a******s just because they sometimes give a route an offensive name. Neither I, nor most other reasonable people will assume that every FA is aware of what names will or will not deter people from climbing at a given crag or on a given route. We would just like FAs to do us the courtesy of revising names that make us uncomfortable at the crag. It's only when an FA responds to that request with something along the lines of "f**k you" that we really start to judge them.

If the climbing community is going to change names that make the community less welcoming to minorities, that has to involve some sort of subjective process. By definition, opinions will vary on what names should be changed. As a result, that process will inevitably be imperfect: some names that don't need to be changed will be, and some names that should be changed won't be (I even have one in mind at Rumney). When Mark stages a protest against the errors inherent in the process of changing names, he is actually just protesting against the process as a whole because it cannot exist without errors. By protesting these errors, Mark is signaling to the community that he would rather have either no process at all or a more conservative process that reduces overreach errors by increasing errors in the other direction. Ultimately, that tells us that Mark is willing to trade inclusivity in the climbing community for "freedom of expression" of FAs. I am all for improving the process in ways that reduce all forms of errors, but that isn't what Mark is doing with his protest. Instead, he has produced a intrusive and annoying complaint about the errors that impact him and his friends without offering any way of improving the climbing community for people who don't feel welcomed. I don't know him personally, and I appreciate all that he's done for the climbing in New England, but I think that it is past time for him to reconsider the consequences and value of this protest.

Gunter Sissokowrote:

Sorry to wake this thread up again, but as one of the few Black people who climbs regularly at Rumney, I feel like I am well placed to offer my perspective on this.

Most people who know me well will tell you that I fall pretty low on the sensitivity spectrum. Even so, I would feel very uncomfortable climbing at a crag called "Slavery Wall," and I would be pretty unhappy to tell someone that I had sent "Happiness in Slavery" (whether or not that name comes from a song). I am far more likely to go climb at that crag now that it has been renamed "Downpour Wall" and will feel much better about ticking "Happiness" than about ticking "Happiness in Slavery." As a result, I challenge your assertion that changing "questionably offensive names" is not doing anything positive. The reality is that those names make it harder for some people to enjoy climbing at certain crags and on certain climbs. By changing names like that, you remove an intangible barrier that keeps minorities out of certain climbing areas. Maybe I'm being selfish, but in my book that's a positive thing. 

Yes, making me and those like me more comfortable at the crag is small potatoes compared to the internment of Uyghurs in China, but being called a "n****r" is also small potatoes compared to the Rwandan genocide. I assume you would still be open to deleting comments that involve that epithet on Mountain project forums? Like removing overtly racist language in an online forum, changing offensive names on MP is a small thing that makes life just a little bit better for underrepresented groups in climbing. I appreciate that FAs are not just a bunch of a******s just because they sometimes give a route an offensive name. Neither I, nor most other reasonable people will assume that every FA is aware of what names will or will not deter people from climbing at a given crag or on a given route. We would just like FAs to do us the courtesy of revising names that make us uncomfortable at the crag. It's only when an FA responds to that request with something along the lines of "f**k you" that we really start to judge them.

If the climbing community is going to change names that make the community less welcoming to minorities, that has to involve some sort of subjective process. By definition, opinions will vary on what names should be changed. As a result, that process will inevitably be imperfect: some names that don't need to be changed will be, and some names that should be changed won't be (I even have one in mind at Rumney). When Mark stages a protest against the errors inherent in the process of changing names, he is actually just protesting against the process as a whole because it cannot exist without errors. By protesting these errors, Mark is signaling to the community that he would rather have either no process at all or a more conservative process that reduces overreach errors by increasing errors in the other direction. Ultimately, that tells us that Mark is willing to trade inclusivity in the climbing community for "freedom of expression" of FAs. I am all for improving the process in ways that reduce all forms of errors, but that isn't what Mark is doing with his protest. Instead, he has produced a intrusive and annoying complaint about the errors that impact him and his friends without offering any way of improving the climbing community for people who don't feel welcomed. I don't know him personally, and I appreciate all that he's done for the climbing in New England, but I think that it is past time for him to reconsider the consequences and value of this protest.

Thank you for expressing what I was trying to in a much more effective way

Gunter Sissokowrote:

By definition, opinions will vary on what names should be changed. As a result, that process will inevitably be imperfect: some names that don't need to be changed will be, and some names that should be changed won't be (I even have one in mind at Rumney). When Mark stages a protest against the errors inherent in the process of changing names, he is actually just protesting against the process as a whole because it cannot exist without errors. By protesting these errors, Mark is signaling to the community that he would rather have either no process at all or a more conservative process that reduces overreach errors by increasing errors in the other direction. 

Lots of good points in your post and I think this one is especially salient. Tolerance of the fact that any process is imperfect seems to be lost in favor of finding particular examples of errors to invalidate the whole concept.

I'm confused...I cant think of any offensively named climbs in Rumney...in the Hinterlands...maybe the German Language ones?...hmmm...wish I had some examples...Rumney and their climbing community has always struck me as socially conservative...where are All these offensive route names? What are they exactly? Techno Surfing on Waimaia? I wanna be offended but maybe my white priviedge means I am cursed to rome the earth ignorantly

Mike Robinsonwrote:

I'm confused...I cant think of any offensively named climbs in Rumney...in the Hinterlands...maybe the German Language ones?...hmmm...wish I had some examples...Rumney and their climbing community has always struck me as socially conservative...where are All these offensive route names? What are they exactly? Techno Surfing on Waimaia? I wanna be offended but maybe my white priviedge means I am cursed to rome the earth ignorantly

The routes at the Hinterlands have not been redacted. They have been renamed to "redacted" by FA as a general protest. You can still see the original names by clicking the updates link at the top of the page. 

Mike Robinsonwrote:

I'm confused...I cant think of any offensively named climbs in Rumney...in the Hinterlands...maybe the German Language ones?...hmmm...wish I had some examples...Rumney and their climbing community has always struck me as socially conservative...where are All these offensive route names? What are they exactly? Techno Surfing on Waimaia? I wanna be offended but maybe my white priviedge means I am cursed to rome the earth ignorantly

As far as I know, all of the route names that have been changed at Rumney have been changed by Mark Sprague as a protest against Mountain Project's new policy of changing names offensive route names, which has resulted in some changes that Mark disagrees with. 

As far as what names at Rumney deserve a second look, this is obviously something that people will have differing opinions on. I think "F**king the dog" was brought up earlier in the thread as being inappropriate. I don't personally have a problem with this type of name, but I can see why some people would prefer that route and crag names maintain a PG rating. A route name that made me say "yikes" the first time I heard it is "Restless Native" at Waimea. This name comes from the phrase "the natives are restless," which plays on the dehumanizing colonial trope of natives (of the Americas, Africa, Pacific Islands, etc...) as savages. Basically everybody has encountered this trope in some form or other and probably hasn't given it much thought. Some examples are: the Skull Island natives in King Kong, the Congolese natives in the classic Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad (which some people think was a commentary on the racism of this very trope), the island natives in Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest, etc.... The name "Restless Native," the phrase "the natives are restless," and the depictions in these movies refer to and dehumanize real people - native populations that were encountered and viewed as savages by European colonists. Those people are still with us today in the form of Native Americans and Pacific Islanders (among others), including the indigenous Hawaiians that "Restless Native" at Waimea presumably refers to. Obviously, we don't encounter many of them at the crag, but, when I do meet one, I would much rather not tell an indigenous Hawaiian that I think they should try "Restless Native."

Gunter Sissokowrote:

As far as I know, all of the route names that have been changed at Rumney have been changed by Mark Sprague as a protest against Mountain Project's new policy of changing names offensive route names, which has resulted in some changes that Mark disagrees with. 

As far as what names at Rumney deserve a second look, this is obviously something that people will have differing opinions on. I think "F**king the dog" was brought up earlier in the thread as being inappropriate. I don't personally have a problem with this type of name, but I can see why some people would prefer that route and crag names maintain a PG rating. A route name that made me say "yikes" the first time I heard it is "Restless Native" at Waimea. This name comes from the phrase "the natives are restless," which plays on the dehumanizing colonial trope of natives (of the Americas, Africa, Pacific Islands, etc...) as savages. Basically everybody has encountered this trope in some form or other and probably hasn't given it much thought. Some examples are: the Skull Island natives in King Kong, the Congolese natives in the classic Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad (which some people think was a commentary on the racism of this very trope), the island natives in Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest, etc.... The name "Restless Native," the phrase "the natives are restless," and the depictions in these movies refer to and dehumanize real people - native populations that were encountered and viewed as savages by European colonists. Those people are still with us today in the form of Native Americans and Pacific Islanders (among others), including the indigenous Hawaiians that "Restless Native" at Waimea presumably refers to. Obviously, we don't encounter many of them at the crag, but, when I do meet one, I would much rather not tell an indigenous Hawaiian that I think they should try "Restless Native."

But, bruh...this is All assuming a bad intent. A racist intent just in the name of something.  My sons mother is Ethiopian...so its like saying...the only reason I got a African pregnant was to delude the gene pool. Fahk..how do you know that that was the context of "restless native"? I assumed it to be that living in NH as a native made them restless and want to leave.  My partner is Laotian, (east Asian) she has family on the Waianae side of O'ahu. I have spent a good deal of time with them and can tell you personally that there is absolutely no "restless" nature in ANYONE Hawaiian.  Are people that ignorant that they'd see this route name and assume that Hawaiians are completely opposite from everything they are advertised to be? (and if they are that dumb do we think changing the name of something is gonna make them smarter?) I can understand where Mark is coming from, so much of this is just absurd.  It speaks to a larger issue...we are trying to make the world safe and offense free.  There is no way to do that! The real way to address these offenses is internally.  Here applies my favorite saying..."why search the earth for a piece of leather large enough to cover it of all its thorns?  When All one needs is a piece large enough to cover their feet."   WE have it so easy in this country that the name of something, if we deem it offensive, must be changed to protect all future citizens from getting their feelings hurt.  I can understand taking down the Confederate Flag or removing slave owners from our money...but redacting Everything that Might be Potentially offensive is dumb.   At what point does it stop? Want to stop racism...you cant...want to end hatred...also never going to happen.  If any of you really care go out of your own comfort zone and go hang out with a family of people who eat food you've never seen ,made from animal parts you'd never eat.   Or just try to go to a place where you are the only person who looks like you.  Then get to know everyone you can.  Soon, you will find that All of us are the same, ranging from petty criminals and gangsters to Software engineers, successful entrepreneurs, and doctors.  Try getting to know people from other cultures and actually educate yourselves truely...don't just cop out and change a fkn name on a route that really doesn't mean anything.

Mike Robinsonwrote:

But, bruh...this is All assuming a bad intent. A racist intent just in the name of something.  My sons mother is Ethiopian...so its like saying...the only reason I got a African pregnant was to delude the gene pool. Fahk..how do you know that that was the context of "restless native"? I assumed it to be that living in NH as a native made them restless and want to leave.  My partner is Laotian, (east Asian) she has family on the Waianae side of O'ahu. I have spent a good deal of time with them and can tell you personally that there is absolutely no "restless" nature in ANYONE Hawaiian.  Are people that ignorant that they'd see this route name and assume that Hawaiians are completely opposite from everything they are advertised to be? (and if they are that dumb do we think changing the name of something is gonna make them smarter?) I can understand where Mark is coming from, so much of this is just absurd.  It speaks to a larger issue...we are trying to make the world safe and offense free.  There is no way to do that! The real way to address these offenses is internally.  Here applies my favorite saying..."why search the earth for a piece of leather large enough to cover it of all its thorns?  When All one needs is a piece large enough to cover their feet."   WE have it so easy in this country that the name of something, if we deem it offensive, must be changed to protect all future citizens from getting their feelings hurt.  I can understand taking down the Confederate Flag or removing slave owners from our money...but redacting Everything that Might be Potentially offensive is dumb.   At what point does it stop? Want to stop racism...you cant...want to end hatred...also never going to happen.  If any of you really care go out of your own comfort zone and go hang out with a family of people who eat food you've never seen ,made from animal parts you'd never eat.   Or just try to go to a place where you are the only person who looks like you.  Then get to know everyone you can.  Soon, you will find that All of us are the same, ranging from petty criminals and gangsters to Software engineers, successful entrepreneurs, and doctors.  Try getting to know people from other cultures and actually educate yourselves truely...don't just cop out and change a fkn name on a route that really doesn't mean anything.

What’s being considered by MP admins is the changing of a few offensive route names. It seems to me that your sentiments would actually be in agreement with the those advocating for changing a few offensive route names. Just like your analogy for using a smaller amount leather to protect feet rather than a larger amount leather to cover the earth, the MP admin is only considering name changes for like five routes in the whole state of NH, while the vast majority of the name changes were done in protest of the process.

And dang I hope to get out and climb with you soon.

Joey Frechettewrote:

What’s being considered by MP admins is the changing of a few offensive route names. It seems to me that your sentiments would actually be in agreement with the those advocating for changing a few offensive route names. Just like your analogy for using a smaller amount leather to protect feet rather than a larger amount leather to cover the earth, the MP admin is only considering name changes for like five routes in the whole state of NH, while the vast majority of the name changes were done in protest of the process.

And dang I hope to get out and climb with you soon.

Well, I guess they'll do whatever they are gonna do...And Heck Yeah get out here!

Mike Robinsonwrote:

But, bruh...

I'm not your "bruh," thanks. No need to pretend to be familiar before starting an impressively condescending rant.

this is All assuming a bad intent. A racist intent just in the name of something.  My sons mother is Ethiopian...so its like saying...the only reason I got a African pregnant was to delude the gene pool. Fahk..how do you know that that was the context of "restless native"? I assumed it to be that living in NH as a native made them restless and want to leave.  My partner is Laotian, (east Asian) she has family on the Waianae side of O'ahu. I have spent a good deal of time with them and can tell you personally that there is absolutely no "restless" nature in ANYONE Hawaiian.  Are people that ignorant that they'd see this route name and assume that Hawaiians are completely opposite from everything they are advertised to be? (and if they are that dumb do we think changing the name of something is gonna make them smarter?)

Maybe next time you should go to the effort of looking into the context yourself before you assume that I don't know what I'm talking about. Waimea is a Hawaii/ocean-themed crag. The vast majority of the names at the crag are in some way related to Hawaii and/or the ocean. I don't think it's a coincidence that the climb "restless native" is located at a crag that makes reference to an island where colonists encountered and subjugated its indigenous population. Your ridiculous suggestion that "restless native" refers to "living in NH as a native [making] them restless and want to leave" just reflects your lack of awareness and thought about the context and meaning, deliberate or not, of this route name.

The intent in this situation is irrelevant to whether the name should be changed. I'm perfectly happy to assume that the FA had benign intentions when naming this route. Like you and many other people, he probably didn't realize that it has racist implications. That's fine - I'm telling you now (and would tell the FA if he were here) that it has racist implications and that I think it should be changed. Now that you know, it's time to update your view. If you decide to be obtuse and refuse to acknowledge the clear implications of this name, or decide that those implications are fine and that the name should remain, that's up to you, but I think it reflects very poorly on you and anyone who agrees with you.

 I can understand where Mark is coming from, so much of this is just absurd.  It speaks to a larger issue...we are trying to make the world safe and offense free.  There is no way to do that! The real way to address these offenses is internally.  Here applies my favorite saying..."why search the earth for a piece of leather large enough to cover it of all its thorns?  When All one needs is a piece large enough to cover their feet."   WE have it so easy in this country that the name of something, if we deem it offensive, must be changed to protect all future citizens from getting their feelings hurt.  I can understand taking down the Confederate Flag or removing slave owners from our money...but redacting Everything that Might be Potentially offensive is dumb.   At what point does it stop? Want to stop racism...you cant...want to end hatred...also never going to happen.  

Of course the world can't be made completely inoffensive to everyone. That doesn't mean that it isn't worthwhile to strive to eliminate things that are racist and discriminatory. You just said it yourself: "it's fine to take down the confederate flag or remove slave owners from our money." Racist and discriminatory route and crag names are the confederate flags and slave owners' images of climbing. Why shouldn't we make an effort to deal with them too? The only costs are, at worst, a blow to the ego of the FAs and having to relearn the names of climbs. Those are a small price to pay if you ask me.

If any of you really care go out of your own comfort zone and go hang out with a family of people who eat food you've never seen ,made from animal parts you'd never eat.   Or just try to go to a place where you are the only person who looks like you.  Then get to know everyone you can.  Soon, you will find that All of us are the same, ranging from petty criminals and gangsters to Software engineers, successful entrepreneurs, and doctors.  Try getting to know people from other cultures and actually educate yourselves truely...don't just cop out and change a fkn name on a route that really doesn't mean anything.

Is this a joke? Go reread the comments that you're responding to so that you can rethink what you just said to me here.

Gunter Sissokowrote:

I'm not your "bruh," thanks. No need to pretend to be familiar before starting an impressively condescending rant.

Maybe next time you should go to the effort of looking into the context yourself before you assume that I don't know what I'm talking about. Waimea is a Hawaii/ocean-themed crag. The vast majority of the names at the crag are in some way related to Hawaii and/or the ocean. I don't think it's a coincidence that the climb "restless native" is located at a crag that makes reference to an island where colonists encountered and subjugated its indigenous population. Your ridiculous suggestion that "restless native" refers to "living in NH as a native [making] them restless and want to leave" just reflects your lack of awareness and thought about the context and meaning, deliberate or not, of this route name.

The intent in this situation is irrelevant to whether the name should be changed. I'm perfectly happy to assume that the FA had benign intentions when naming this route. Like you and many other people, he probably didn't realize that it has racist implications. That's fine - I'm telling you now (and would tell the FA if he were here) that it has racist implications and that I think it should be changed. Now that you know, it's time to update your view. If you decide to be obtuse and refuse to acknowledge the clear implications of this name, or decide that those implications are fine and that the name should remain, that's up to you, but I think it reflects very poorly on you and anyone who agrees with you.

Of course the world can't be made completely inoffensive to everyone. That doesn't mean that it isn't worthwhile to strive to eliminate things that are racist and discriminatory. You just said it yourself: "it's fine to take down the confederate flag or remove slave owners from our money." Racist and discriminatory route and crag names are the confederate flags and slave owners' images of climbing. Why shouldn't we make an effort to deal with them too? The only costs are, at worst, a blow to the ego of the FAs and having to relearn the names of climbs. Those are a small price to pay if you ask me.

Is this a joke? Go reread the comments that you're responding to so that you can rethink what you just said to me here.

Buddy, none of it was directed at you...you may be projecting? Personally I dont think any names should be changed and Im not mad if you think they should be...only expressing my view on the subject...I should' ve expected that whatever I said was gonna offend you and thats my mistake

Mike Robinsonwrote:

Buddy, none of it was directed at you...you may be projecting?

You replied directly to Gunter’s comment, though...

Eliot Coffeywrote:

You replied directly to Gunter’s comment, though...

True, it just happened to be one of the many examples I could've used to point out how we seem to be searching for reasons to be offended these days...I understand how it was taken incorrectly...but I cant exactly quote everyone in a single response...Another thought, (not directed at you, though I am quoting you), is that route names are also tied to the FAist, if they chose to say something that is offensive then they can answer for it...I stand firm in the believe that whatever the FAist names a route is Final...if you don't like it go put your time and money into a route that others climb for free and then shit on just because they don't understand the route name...there are Millions of established routes, and millions more that are yet to be done.  I would feel safe in assuming that FAists are well traveled enough not to be naming routes for the soul purpose of making people feel alienated or offended...but then again maybe they want to fuck with people who are so easily worked up...after all it is EGO that drives us to conquer our chosen craft

If everything was made out of sugar we would never know what sweet tastes like.
One of my route names was redacted. A lip traverse at Beaver Brook called beaver lip. No connotation. Another route of mine around the corner, nice beaver, was named after the joke in the naked gun. There’s connotation yet that route name isn’t redacted. Where’s the consistency? 1266 routes with the word dick in them. Some are just names, lots are not. Where’s the redactions? Either you do this or you don’t. You don’t get in between. If people really wanted change they’d go the full mile. If you wanted an more level playing field you didn’t get it. 

i think what you’re saying is, this protest is rather silly and the vast majority of names should be changed back rather than having a temper tantrum because one doesn’t like something. 

Dan Knisellwrote:

If everything was made out of sugar we would never know what sweet tastes like.
One of my route names was redacted. A lip traverse at Beaver Brook called beaver lip. No connotation. Another route of mine around the corner, nice beaver, was named after the joke in the naked gun. There’s connotation yet that route name isn’t redacted. Where’s the consistency? 1266 routes with the word dick in them. Some are just names, lots are not. Where’s the redactions? Either you do this or you don’t. You don’t get in between. If people really wanted change they’d go the full mile. If you wanted an more level playing field you didn’t get it. 

Thankfully the rest of the world is a steaming pile of racist garbage, so let's take the taste of garbage out of climbing as best we can. 

Also it amazes me that people still don't understand that this process is flawed and a stopgap until a more rigorous review can be done. It makes no sense to say "I'm upset you did anything at all because you didn't do 100% of everything you could have done" Perhaps you feel that nothing should be done until it can be done with no errors? Given that's not possible, I'm happy something got done because it caught the majority of really shitty names out there. Sorry that your favorite boulder got temporarily redacted in the process I guess.

Mike Robinsonwrote:

Or just try to go to a place where you are the only person who looks like you. 

...like a person of color at almost any climbing area in the US? 

Big Redwrote:

Thankfully the rest of the world is a steaming pile of racist garbage, so let's take the taste of garbage out of climbing as best we can. 

Also it amazes me that people still don't understand that this process is flawed and a stopgap until a more rigorous review can be done. It makes no sense to say "I'm upset you did anything at all because you didn't do 100% of everything you could have done" Perhaps you feel that nothing should be done until it can be done with no errors? Given that's not possible, I'm happy something got done because it caught the majority of really shitty names out there. Sorry that your favorite boulder got temporarily redacted in the process I guess.

...like a person of color at almost any climbing area in the US? 

I think its more that a website with no authority over rock climbs has decided it needs to be the one to make the change. Isn't more logical to let communities govern the route names be incharge of the names? Like the RCA should have gathered, reviewed route names as a group and changed the bad ones, instead of a website arbitrarily putting itself in charge. In this case the process could be perceived as so flawed it doesn't accomplish anything.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

I think its more that a website with no authority over rock climbs has decided it needs to be the one to make the change. Isn't more logical to let communities govern the route names be incharge of the names? Like the RCA should have gathered, reviewed route names as a group and changed the bad ones, instead of a website arbitrarily putting itself in charge. In this case the process could be perceived as so flawed it doesn't accomplish anything.

MP hasn't changed anything at all, the offensive route names still exist. It has full rights to choose to show a route name or not, and subsequently an FA can choose to rename the route or not.

It would be nice of those who are characterizing me and my motives to actually go back and reread what I wrote. I'll take some blame due to my writing ability and the fact that it is scattered in several threads, but much of the mischaracterization is coming from your own heads. I also don't necessarily support all the views of those who say they agree with me, some of which I think are pretty bizarre. 

Big Redwrote:

MP hasn't changed anything at all, the offensive route names still exist. It has full rights to choose to show a route name or not, and subsequently an FA can choose to rename the route or not.

Shockleys Ceiling is now the ceiling.