Totems are over priced

I aid and use cams in all sorts of weird ways to tr solo, and I can say without a doubt, currently Totem has no competitor. Other cams are great too, but nothing sticks more reliably, and resists spinning and walking like Totems. You get what you pay for.

We're all idiots, they'll be $10 more by the end of this thread.

Deven Lewis wrote:

I feel like a lot of folk that own totems are the same people that own Porsches and corvettes to drive down the highway while a Buick would do you just fine. At a race track yes they'd win but I feel most of us here aren't race track climbers. 

I don't have a lot of money, but I'm very grateful that I had enough to upgrade to Totems. My car is a piece of shit, but if I could afford a Porsche or Corvette, I would get one of those too. Glad to hear you enjoy your C4s and Buicks.

Sam Cieply wrote:

I don't have a lot of money, but I'm very grateful that I had enough to upgrade to Totems. My car is a piece of shit, but if I could afford a Porsche or Corvette, I would get one of those too. Glad to hear you enjoy your C4s and Buicks.

My analogy is based on the users ability to utilize the equipment to its peak performance not on the users affluence. I'm just saying a newer or more recreational climber like myself will not be able utilize the intended product performance and will be better suited with a more standard system.

Deven Lewis wrote:

My analogy is based on the users ability to utilize the equipment to its peak performance not on the users affluence. I'm just saying a newer or more recreational climber like myself will not be able utilize the intended product performance and will be better suited with a more standard system.

I get you, I’m just trying to say that yes some of us appreciate nice stuff, no shame in that. Fortunately nice climbing gear is still attainable for a loser like me who can’t even afford a Buick.

Also, I only climb 5.10 trad and have been very grateful to have Totems many times. I mostly climb in Joshua Tree and they can be a godsend at any grade.

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

Aliens and are great but they don't have any of the above structural benefits of a Totem cam. They were never a revolutionary design that changed the way cams work in the rock, they just had softer metal that made them bite better and wear out faster and were produced with the same level of care and attention to detail as most of my High School students put into their essays. 

Aliens were revolutionary. The stem had more flexibility than other cams of their day, and internal springs so they had narrower head width. Plus the softer metal. When the patent ran out most small cams manufacturers copied elements of their design: X4s/Z4s, Mastercams, Zeros, Dragonflies. 

Totems are arguably more revolutionary in the way the lobes are loaded through the cables instead of the stem. Once Totems patent runs out I bet you'll likewise see a lot of others copy elements of their design.

Link cams are innovative but not revolutionary because no one will copy their design.

Sam Cieply wrote:

I get you, I’m just trying to say that yes some of us appreciate nice stuff, no shame in that. Fortunately nice climbing gear is still attainable for a loser like me who can’t even afford a Buick.

Also, I only climb 5.10 trad and have been very grateful to have Totems many times. I mostly climb in Joshua Tree and they can be a godsend at any grade.

I Like nice things as well and I like climbing with people who have new things that I get to try. 

For me to be a believer I would like to see data of a dynamic load test on a flared placement of a totem vs a off set cam  and regular cam as well. Or is there a placebo effect here (mental pro)? 

Deven Lewis wrote:

I Like nice things as well and I like climbing with people who have new things that I get to try. 

For me to be a believer I would like to see data of a dynamic load test on a flared placement of a totem vs a off set cam  and regular cam as well. Or is there a placebo effect here (mental pro)? 

I've never fallen on a Totem but I've successfully bounced tested them in limestone where C4's have failed. That's some mental pro right there.

almostrad wrote:

Seems like I’m really in the minority here, which is fine.
the major disconnect that I can’t wrap my head around though is this: 

totem fanbois- you make it sound like going climbing without totems is a death wish, and use ER visits as a justification that makes them “cheap” in the grand scheme. I’ve never had an issue in my climbing career getting other cams (offsets included) to place and stay, and catch falls, even on significantly run out or difficult to protect routes.

I really don’t see anything that makes them so much better.  Are aliens a thing of the past now? 

I own a grand total of one totem (not counting the basics - love those!), so I wouldn’t call myself a fanboy by any means.  My point was more about the overall disconnect of valuing life-saving equipment, which is almost universally underpriced.  So something improves your chances of walking away from a particular climb by 20%...can you really put a price on that??  If you believe they are superior life-saving devices, then $20 more per cam is an absolute steal.

I shat on totems as the next big meme until I actually placed one.  Those things are worth the money if you're buying a new rack. If you already have offsets with a doubles rack of c4 and z4, not worth converting your rack. 

Deven Lewis wrote:

I feel like a lot of folk that own totems are the same people that own Porsches and corvettes to drive down the highway while a Buick would do you just fine. At a race track yes they'd win but I feel most of us here aren't race track climbers. 

In this analogy, the highway is a perfectly parallel crack, and the race track is a pebbly crack, a flared crack, or a pod. Given most of us don't climb exclusively on perfectly parallel cracks, most of us ARE race track drivers.

My point, most climbs 5.12 and below were put up before the 90s where most climbers were using nuts, tricams and rigid stem cams. For the vast majority of climbs and climbers a standard bd and metolius will get you where you need to go safely.

"Good enough for the FA is good enough for the average climber" doesn't make any sense. If I'm not mistaken, the FA of Apoplexy was a free solo: does that mean that I can safely free solo it? Obviously not, but I can lead it safely with modern gear.

Similarly, some of what I climb was originally led with hemp ropes--effectively free soloing. It would absolutely not be safe for me to climb it with the same protection, because I'm not as strong as the pioneers.

The YDS has nothing to do with protection difficulty.

Also please show me the data and correct me if I'm wrong but I believe totems are rated for static body weight load like aiding when flared(only on two lobes) but is not recommended by the manufacturer for dynamic loads in the same configuration. Unlike offset cam which are recommended for both.

Totems are specifically engineered for cracks that flare in the direction of pull (up to a certain degree of flare). See here.

They are only rated for static body weight when only on two lobes, but the independent loading means that in flares perpendicular to the direction of pull, all four lobes still engage as long as they're making contact with the rock. So you are on four lobes in a lot more situations with Totems than you would be with a single stem design.

Offset cams aren't rated for loading on two lobes from any manufacturer that I know of. The entire point of offsets is that they allow you to load all four lobes in flares, but the flip side of this is that you can't load all four lobes in parallel cracks.

And for what it's worth, while Totems aren't rated for dynamic loads on two lobes, I've taken a perhaps 4-foot fall on one and it held.

And more broadly, at this point I have numerous experiences of Totems holding where other cams have failed. Logical arguments aside, simple observation tells me that Totems are better.

David K wrote:

In this analogy, the highway is a perfectly parallel crack, and the race track is a pebbly crack, a flared crack, or a pod. Given most of us don't climb exclusively on perfectly parallel cracks, most of us ARE race track drivers.

"Good enough for the FA is good enough for the average climber" doesn't make any sense. If I'm not mistaken, the FA of Apoplexy was a free solo: does that mean that I can safely free solo it? Obviously not, but I can lead it safely with modern gear.

Similarly, some of what I climb was originally led with hemp ropes--effectively free soloing. It would absolutely not be safe for me to climb it with the same protection, because I'm not as strong as the pioneers.

The YDS has nothing to do with protection difficulty.

Totems are specifically engineered for cracks that flare in the direction of pull (up to a certain degree of flare). See here.

They are only rated for static body weight when only on two lobes, but the independent loading means that in flares perpendicular to the direction of pull, all four lobes still engage as long as they're making contact with the rock. So you are on four lobes in a lot more situations with Totems than you would be with a single stem design.

Offset cams aren't rated for loading on two lobes from any manufacturer that I know of. The entire point of offsets is that they allow you to load all four lobes in flares, but the flip side of this is that you can't load all four lobes in parallel cracks.

And for what it's worth, while Totems aren't rated for dynamic loads on two lobes, I've taken a perhaps 4-foot fall on one and it held.

And more broadly, at this point I have numerous experiences of Totems holding where other cams have failed. Logical arguments aside, simple observation tells me that Totems are better.

Metolius work well in pods and pebble cracks as well the race track im referring to is. 5.13 solution pocket and between tufas that these were specifically designed to protect.

And yes I agree modern climbing climbing equipment makes scary first ascents much more manageable for the average Joe and I'm not a bold climber I nest multiple pieces if I'm looking at the slightest run out. and basic things like flexible stems have made these climbs safer

You're right offset cam aren't rated for only loading 2 lobes but a well placed offset in a flare is. Its also rated and recommended to whip on when all 4 lobes are placed in contact

Thank you for giving me the mechanical specs but I'm not a math wiz I have no idea what it says could you lay it out 

I'm not against totems but I feel these big fish stories will inspire false confidence for a newer climber thinking they can get away with a less ideal placement hurting themselves as you can see in the video below he backs up multiple totems because he knows their limitations as well as the rocks limitations but I feel a lot of newer climbs will feel they can get away with out backing up a less ideal placement because it's a "totem"

Totem is one of the most pro-worker and pro-environment companies making cams. 

https://www.totemmt.com/about-us/

"Fair working relationships: In Totem does not exist the salary difference between workers, all of us receive the same salary for the same work hours. Moreover, we understand that the capital that Totem can accumulate manufacturing climbing gear is not just the consequence of the Totem MT workers, so we decided not to distribute the benefits and dedicate this to support local projects which have our same values and continue making community in other fields."

Will always support a company that supports their workers and the environment. 

Deven Lewis wrote:

Metolius work well in pods and pebble cracks as well the race track im referring to is.

I love Metolius UL Master Cams. That's my other rack and I've fallen on them plenty, so in fact those are the cams I have the most basis for comparing to the Totems. Those are exactly the other cams I'm talking about when I say Totems catch in places other cams don't.

Master Cams are some of the best cams on the market. Metolius provides the best customer service of any cam manufacturer I've experienced. And they are the least expensive cams I know of. If Totems are out of your price range, I'd definitely point you to the Master Cams as a viable alternative. But they simply don't hold in as many situations as the Totems do.

5.13 solution pocket and between tufas that these were specifically designed to protect.

YDS has nothing to do with protection. There are plenty of pebbly cracks on 5.7 Gunks routes that are every bit as hard to protect as a 5.13 solution pocket or a gap between tufas. Likewise there are splitter 5.13 Indian Creek cracks that can be easily protected by any cam of the right size. YDS has nothing to do with protection.

Thank you for giving me the mechanical specs but I'm not a math wiz I have no idea what it says could you lay it out 

Totems are specifically designed to work in placements that flare in the direction of pull, and according to the model, exert greater force in placements that flare in this way than other cams.

I'm not against totems but I feel these big fish stories will inspire false confidence for a newer climber thinking they can get away with a less ideal placement hurting themselves as you can see in the video below he backs up multiple totems because he knows their limitations as well as the rocks limitations but I feel a lot of newer climbs will feel they can get away with out backing up a less ideal placement because it's a "totem"

If you're worried about inspiring false confidence in beginners, then stop bringing up the YDS, as this might inspire false confidence in a beginner heading up a 5.6 thinking it will be easy to protect because it's a "5.6".

YDS has a protection rating  Totems or other modern pro may turn a PG into a G.

GGood, solid protectionPGPretty good, few sections of poor or non-existent placementsPG13Fair protection, falls may be long (perhaps about 13 feet) but are less likely to cause serious injuryRRunout, some protection placements may be very far apart (possibility of broken bones, even when properly protected)XNo protection, extremely dangerous (possibility of death even when properly protected)

Deven Lewis wrote:

Also please show me the data and correct me if I'm wrong but I believe totems are rated for static body weight load like aiding when flared(only on two lobes) but is not recommended by the manufacturer for dynamic loads in the same configuration. Unlike offset cam which are recommended for both.

So even though Totems aren’t fully rated on two lobes you wouldn’t use it if that’s all that was available?  Off set cams aren’t rated for two lobes either and are crap on two lobes compared to Totems on two lobes.  

People need to lose the idea of gear that is for advanced climbers or gear I’ll get when I get better.   I don’t buy cheap tools for work because I appreciate good quality and want tools that work well and will last.   Climbing gear is the same, don’t buy “beginner” gear thinking you will upgrade later, that is a waste of money.   Buy good gear from the get go.  If you decide climbing on gear is scary you can always sell it but if you buy crap gear it will be tough to sell unless you can find some sucker who wants a “beginner“ rack.

David K wrote:

Reasons why this is also irrelevant:

1. That's an add-on to the YDS, not part of the original YDS.
2. Even if you include it in the YDS, it doesn't tell you what shape the protection is, so it doesn't tell you if Totems will work better than other cams.
3. Even if it did tell you that, Deven Lewis sure wasn't talking about that.

I'm unsubscribing from this thread. It's clear we're going down the rabbit hole of weird misconceptions about how protection works, and I just don't have the energy.

1. Two people said YDS does not tell you about protection. It can.

2. True. But for a climb like Serenity Crack 5.10d YDS PG13 also knowing that it has lots of pin scars (often flared placements) Totems will work better than other cams.

3. I was just correcting people's definitive but wrong statements that YDS doesn't have a protections component. 

David K wrote:

I love Metolius UL Master Cams. That's my other rack and I've fallen on them plenty, so in fact those are the cams I have the most basis for comparing to the Totems. That's exactly what I'm talking about when I say Totems catch in places other cams don't.

YDS has nothing to do with protection. There are plenty of pebbly cracks on 5.7 Gunks routes that are every bit as hard to protect as a 5.13 solution pocket or a gap between tufas. Likewise there are splitter 5.13 Indian Creek cracks that can be easily protected by any cam of the right size. YDS has nothing to do with protection.

Totems are specifically designed to work in placements that flare in the direction of pull, and according to the model, exert greater force in placements that flare in this way than other cams.

If you're worried about inspiring false confidence in beginners, then stop bringing up the YDS, as this might inspire false confidence in a beginner heading up a 5.6 thinking it will be easy to protect because it's a "5.6".

Imnot comparing difficulty to protect with the difficulty of climbing. And most modern guidebooks will give specific rack suggestions and hazard potential.

That data is still based on static loading not dynamic loads. and you wouldn't be pulling on two lobes on a offset cams in a flare you would be pulling on all four because thats what they are designed to do.

I learned to traditional climb in the gunks, north Carolina and the NRG and traditional face climbing is my favorite style I cant wait to go back there and see how well I have improved.  I know the funkiness of placing gear in those areas and its made me alot better at finding not so obvious placements in the tetons and Smith tuff and you can't deny climbing there  its better having safety in numbers no matter what cam they are and it'll be hard to do that if you're on a budget and buying cams that cost upwards of 70$ instead of buying some used cams for as little as $30

Kevin Mokracek wrote:

People need to lose the idea of gear that is for advanced climbers or gear I’ll get when I get better.   I don’t buy cheap tools for work because I appreciate good quality and want tools that work well and will last.   Climbing gear is the same, don’t buy “beginner” gear thinking you will upgrade later, that is a waste of money.   Buy good gear from the get go.  If you decide climbing on gear is scary you can always sell it but if you buy crap gear it will be tough to sell unless you can find some sucker who wants a “beginner“ rack.

Somebody should tell Brent Perkins he is climbing on a beginners rack.

Deven Lewis wrote:

Somebody should tell Brent Perkins he is climbing on a beginners rack.

Great video but what part of his rack is beginner?   I’m talking about people who buy a whole rack of Trango Flex cams or equivalent.  BD and Master Cams are great I’ve got loads of their stuff.   You said a Totem is like a Porsche, I would liken it more to a Jeep or Land Cruiser, it just allows more options and flexibility for placements.   You keep mentioning that off set cams are meant to be loaded on all four cams and you are right, Totems are also meant to be loaded on all four but can also be loaded on three or two, an off set can’t or it can but not with the same level of engagement as a Totem.   I would feel much more secure falling on a totem with 2 or 3 lobes engaged than a Alien or Master Cam off set with 2 or 3 lobes engaged.  

Kevin Mokracek wrote:

People need to lose the idea of gear that is for advanced climbers or gear I’ll get when I get better.   I don’t buy cheap tools for work because I appreciate good quality and want tools that work well and will last.   Climbing gear is the same, don’t buy “beginner” gear thinking you will upgrade later, that is a waste of money.   Buy good gear from the get go.  If you decide climbing on gear is scary you can always sell it but if you buy crap gear it will be tough to sell unless you can find some sucker who wants a “beginner“ rack.

This is a dumb analogy... The weekend shop worker will buy Ryobi and be perfectly happy with it for all their needs. The construction guy should shell out for Hilton or Makita because he will hit the limits of a Ryobi quickly.

Same for gear, a weekend chuffer like me does not need Ultralights or Totems or whatever the flavor of the week is. We can protect most every climb we get on with "outdated" gear. That being said I will fill in some holes in my rack with a totem or two if I see them at a discount. Same with my tools, I keep an eye out for a Hilton impact and Skillsaw. Both I will not use to the limits of what they are designed for but I am sure I will enjoy them when I do use them.