To Ban... or not to Ban Bolts!

Mike Preiss wrote:

Professor I agree with your points about the dirtbags will find their way, but on your hunting points I am not so sure about

I said "skilled".Maybe I should have said "ethical", as well, but a "skilled" hunter doesn't take that shot. I've seen many more torn apart by other animals. Also why I don't hunt bow.

Samuel Bona wrote:

I might not be a hunter but I am 90% certain that is a female deer. Ya can't shoot them last time I checked. Also TF takes a shot like that? I feel like you actually have to try to make that shot.
But I digress. The response to my note makes good points.

Depends where you are, Does are legal in many states. It is state by state, hunt area by hunt area, and changes based on population. All based on habitat loss.

Ho. Lee. Sheet. This thing is still going. Not just going, picking up steam. Trad hasn't had to resurrect it for a bit. If that doesn't demonstrate the pointlessness of online "debate," nothing will.

First MP says, "F the forums," then Frank Vee reminds us there are no heroes here, now Trad shows us the folly of our ways. It's like the universe is yelling "STAHP," but we just can't.

Samuel Bona wrote:

Bolts keep the cost of entry down for climbing, meaning it is more accessible to low income communities which is what we want.

Why do we want that?

 The last thing I want to happen is climbing becoming a rich person sport like skiing. I think the real debate is down to how we introduce a growing population of climbers into outdoor climbing- especially with a pandemic possibly shutting down climbing gyms for 2+ years. We need to teach them about top-rope ethics, trail usage, not shitting under rocks (I hate that one) and packing out their garbage. My personal thought is that maybe we should consider bolting more trad routes to protect the integrity of the rock and open up more spaces to climbers who can't afford racks. Cams and other pro damage the rock, think of the conversation on the Supercrack of the desert page. It's wider than it used to be because of things like cams. Bolts can be painted to match the wall so you can't see them from below and they don't widen cracks. Maybe the ethics change to make bottom-up bolting more common too.

What we need to do is keep the growing population of "climbers" in the gym. Safer for them and better for the environment. Banning bolts would be a boon for the climbing gym industry.

Samuel Bona wrote:

 with a pandemic possibly shutting down climbing gyms for 2+ years. 

Lolwut? My gyms are already open.

Lyle M wrote:

The grades are not what I'm talking about. It's the challenge. Take away bolts and there is less athletic challenge possible. That is not a good thing. Also, some people like climbing on entirely smooth slabs, bouldery overhangs, or crimpy face climbs, all of which are unprotectable traditionally.”

you’re high af right now aren’t you? You’re saying there’s no hard trad routes? 

Well... no. Maybe read my post again? I said there's less athletic challenge without bolts. After all, the hardest routes in the world are all somewhat bolt protected (silence, la dura dura, dawn wall etc.)

I'm cautiously assuming that's just who's sent, not the FA, at least as of when the article went to press.

Everyone (should) knows a trad route is harder than it’s sports equivalent, there’s way more athleticism in climbing at that grade with another 10lbs of gear. You’re point isn’t really sold on me, plus, sports are bs screw athleticism. It’s just going to turn into more of a corporate shit show that advertises climbing to be safe and accessible to everyone and encouraging newbs to go blow the 2nd clip to ground fall or worse, but don’t worry everyone the tags say “rock climbing is dangerous”. Top roping is cheap and accessible, then if someone  really likes climbing they can starve themselves and sacrifice relationships  to put together a bargain grade functional rack from GunkieMike on mountain project while learning everything they can from YouTube and other climbers. 

I'd posit placing gear adds perhaps a letter grade of difficulty, two at most, though I haven't climbed harder than 5.11 trad, so what the hell do I know? A big part of the perception of "trad is harder" comes from the fact that most trad areas, particularly in the US, are older and therefore have stiffer grades than sport areas bolted in the last 20 years. As the world's most extreme trad routes were all put up with people with a lot of modern sport climbing under their belts, I'd expect the grades to be at least sort of accurate to modern sport grading at the top of the scale.

 If the gap was much bigger 1-2 letters than that you'd expect to see the people who can do 5.14c trad hiking 5.15a or harder when just clipping draws, and that really isn't the case at all. 

Certainly the rack for these kind of extreme trad climbs tends to be quite light, a few microcams and nuts, certainly not anywhere near 10 lbs, barring very rare exceptions like a huge offwidth like Century Crack. 

I mean the fact remains that the hardest sport climb is harder than the hardest trad climb. And correct me if I'm wrong but I think there's significantly more 5.14 sport climbs than trad.

ADAM GRANT wrote:

That is a cop out response and it is incorrect. 

Allow me to explain. Religion is based on folklore, ethics is based in logic. Ergo, ethics is not religion. They are fundamentally opposed.

Daniel Chode Rider wrote:

I mean the fact remains that the hardest sport climb is harder than the hardest trad climb. And correct me if I'm wrong but I think there's significantly more 5.14 sport climbs than trad.

I mean the fact remains that all sport climbs are softer than trad climbs.  And correct me if I'm wrong but I think there are significantly more 5.14 sport climbs than trad because they are softer.

Daniel Chode Rider wrote:

I mean the fact remains that the hardest sport climb has a higher rating than the hardest trad climb. 

FTFY. Apples and orange to some extent. What's "harder" is more involved than what's "higher rated". I suppose you'd have to check with Adam Ondra on his repeat of the Dawn Wall vs a repeat of a top end sport route. It took him about 3 weeks of on and off sussing out the pitches and an 8 day final push on the Dawn Wall. 5.14D 23 pitches. You can't really compare a first ascent to a repeat, and many of Ondra's (and the world's top rated climbs) were his FAs. Maybe he'll repeat Bibliographie 5.15d.

Ban Mountain Project. climbing gyms, instagram and facebook.  

Yup, if you want to reduce impact that is much more effective than the equally ridiculous idea of banning bolts.

Gumby King wrote:

I mean the fact remains that all sport climbs are softer than trad climbs.  And correct me if I'm wrong but I think there are significantly more 5.14 sport climbs than trad because they are softer.

Lets watch a video of you sending .14 before we accept your opinion on which is softer

Claudine Longet wrote:

Lets watch a video of you sending .14 before we accept your opinion on which is softer

I hope you like watching golf!

ADAM GRANT wrote:

Every religion has its own folklore.

Every ethic has its own logic.

Both folklore/logic will have people claiming their folklore/logic is the only true one.  

Your “logic” is no more correct then their “folklore” and their “folklore” is no more correct then your “logic”.

So for this analogy religion = ethics = folklore = logic

You are preaching your logic as the only true right way. Trying to shove your logic down others throat. Your ethics argument is nothing more then your opinion.  Using the term ethics for your argument is a bad attempt at manipulating people into thinking your opinion is just, true and somehow righteous.  Your opinion carries no more weight then Anyone else’s opinion.  

So again ethics is just like religion everyone has their own and theirs is the only true way. 

You also never answered my question about you working at a gym.  

Ethics are not opinions. If I need to give everyone an ethics lesson we're never going to get anywhere.

For your first ethics lesson, explain the difference between bolting and chipping.

I do not work at a gym.

Daniel Chode Rider wrote:

I mean the fact remains that the hardest sport climb is harder than the hardest trad climb. And correct me if I'm wrong but I think there's significantly more 5.14 sport climbs than trad.

With current technology we can make any grade sport climb in a gym. Why do we need to keep bolting?

Aren't bolts there to protect us when trad gear will not? If that rule is followed then what's the beef? Are we constraining ourselves to only climbing what is protectable with gear? 

I understand that there are climbs that are protectable with gear that get bolted anyways. Usually I hope these routes are developed as such because the ethics of the area are largely sport focused. Other times these bolts are not warranted and should be removed. It should be taken on a case by case basis for the validity of bolts: local ethics, quality of pro, local boldness?, etc. 

In southern Mass there are some climbs that have been chopped because of a certain person. Some of these routes are not otherwise protectable and are thus rendered either a death climb or top rope. Routes that were otherwise bolted fairly and left the trad climbs alone to be done. It's a slippery slope on one end, to allow any bolts, and also too bad to deny these climbs. Kind of a shame in my opinion.  

At the end of the day, shouldn't the bolting ethic be determined by the people that live and climb there?

Are we constraining ourselves to only climbing what is protectable with gear?

No our constraint is Fear, Not Gear.

JonasMR wrote:

Ho. Lee. Sheet. This thing is still going. Not just going, picking up steam. Trad hasn't had to resurrect it for a bit. If that doesn't demonstrate the pointlessness of online "debate," nothing will.

First MP says, "F the forums," then Frank Vee reminds us there are no heroes here, now Trad shows us the folly of our ways. It's like the universe is yelling "STAHP," but we just can't.

Why you and others must respond that a conversation about modern bolting is silly and useless? if you have nothing constructive to add why not just ignore this forum and move on to one you might add something useful. There has been some good posts here on both sides of the issue.

Mike Preiss wrote:

Why you and others must respond that a conversation about modern bolting is silly and useless? if you have nothing constructive to add why not just ignore this forum and move on to one you might add something useful. There has been some good posts here on both sides of the issue.

This^. To the other posters, I have only given up on this discussion since trad climbing is growing at a greater rate than sport(based on the study I posted earlier) but “bolts bring people,” is still the primary logic.