Cascade Piton Ethics?

I'm looking to do some winter routes in the Cascades this year, and a number of them call for pitons in the gear descriptions.
My bias is that pitons are no-nos and one should use clean pro these days, but it seems like that's not always the ethic here.

Any opinions on the ethics of pitons in the cascades?

I'd probably want to do a "summer" route somewhere this fall to practice placing them.  Any recommendations on routes for that? (I'm Seattle-based)

Thanks, friends.

When it’s the rock or your life, you should feel no hesitation about pounding pitons.

especially in shitty alpine rock which freeze/thaws and frequently falls apart anyways.

Pick ones that don’t.

I can't speak to local ethics in the Cascades, but generally if a route requires pins and that is noted in the guidebook then you can safely assume that pins are within the local ethic.

I would caution against practicing on-route if you are looking to minimize damage to routes (even those that require pins) - a local road cut or quarry is a most suitable practice area that will allow you place many pins without worrying about the aesthetic/environmental effect.

J Wilsonwrote:

I'm looking to do some winter routes in the Cascades this year, and a number of them call for pitons in the gear descriptions.
My bias is that pitons are no-nos and one should use clean pro these days, but it seems like that's not always the ethic here.

Any opinions on the ethics of pitons in the cascades?

I'd probably want to do a "summer" route somewhere this fall to practice placing them.  Any recommendations on routes for that? (I'm Seattle-based)

Thanks, friends.

It depends on the route. There are some very clean rock climbs that no one would want to see damaged. But if you're talking about classic winter routes, pitons are fine.

FosterKwrote:

I can't speak to local ethics in the Cascades, but generally if a route requires pins and that is noted in the guidebook then you can safely assume that pins are within the local ethic.

I would caution against practicing on-route if you are looking to minimize damage to routes (even those that require pins) - a local road cut or quarry is a most suitable practice area that will allow you place many pins without worrying about the aesthetic/environmental effect.

Thanks, practicing off-route is definitely my preference, but I haven't found a good spot yet.  I'll keep looking.

If you don’t like pitons/have ethical issues against them, then don’t bring them. 

If you must, at least be sparing with them and leave behind what you place as fixed pro so as to not incur repeated funkness-ing if you’re putting them in virgin cracks. I can’t speak to others thoughts on this but generally, the only pitons in my impression that would be difficult to replace with clean gear are KB’s and LA’s. You shouldn’t really be carrying angles (except maybe the absolute smallest), and don’t fix a spectre if you place one of those...

Second point to be made is that someone in the past might’ve quarreled with your same problem and settled on fixing gear like said above. Carry the gear you might need and you might not need to place anything at all.

Jack Yipwrote:

If you must, at least be sparing with them and leave behind what you place as fixed pro so as to not incur repeated funkness-ing if you’re putting them in virgin cracks. I can’t speak to others thoughts on this but generally, the only pitons in my impression that would be difficult to replace with clean gear are KB’s and LA’s. You shouldn’t really be carrying angles (except maybe the absolute smallest), and don’t fix a spectre if you place one of those...

Second point to be made is that someone in the past might’ve quarreled with your same problem and settled on fixing gear like said above. Carry the gear you might need and you might not need to place anything at all.

Thanks!  Definitely only looking at KBs and LAs.  

I hadn't thought about leaving the gear in, or hoping others had.  Thanks!

If you must, at least be sparing with them and leave behind what you place as fixed pro so as to not incur repeated funkness-ing if you’re putting them in virgin cracks. I can’t speak to others thoughts on this but generally, the only pitons in my impression that would be difficult to replace with clean gear are KB’s and LA’s. You shouldn’t really be carrying angles (except maybe the absolute smallest), and don’t fix a spectre if you place one of those...

Second point to be made is that someone in the past might’ve quarreled with your same problem and settled on fixing gear like said above. Carry the gear you might need and you might not need to place anything at all.

I would argue that leaving your pitons is unethical, it taints the very nature of an alpine climb and unless it's being left as a rap anchor there is little reason to leave them behind. You do presumably have two tools that make cleaning pins quite straightforward. The repeated freeze/thaw cycles mentioned above by someone else not only compromises rock quality, but also piton quality, and it could be dangerous leaving fixed pins for others to rely on in places subject to these conditions. LAs are also too heavy to be bringing on alpine climbs (2-4 oz each) compared to KBs (.8 oz) so you could bring more if you really thought you needed them and stack, which would still be lighter, leave you with more options, and stacked pins can be easier to clean. You can also pound spectres/beaks into thin seams, which are also easier to clean, and are more confidence inspiring (IMO). The disadvantage to these is that they are heavier than KBs, especially if you have tomahawks, and it would be tragic to leave them as rap anchors.  

Bring a baby angle and a couple kbs. That’s all you need, have the second clean them. I’m guessing you really won’t place them much and if you do it’s in something that would be a grungy nightmare during rock season.

Using pins at the lower town wall is not cool, but as far as romping around the mountains on seldom done routes no one is going to notice/care.

Get out there and go climbing. Pound a pin, save some skin. 

Ghostface Sprayerwrote:

I would argue that leaving your pitons is unethical, it taints the very nature of an alpine climb and unless it's being left as a rap anchor there is little reason to leave them behind. 

Boy, you're not going to be happy when you find out what the French left on Aiguille du Midi...

Jokes aside, as GS and I bashed heads over, the main point is to use your best judgement and be safe. 

"Boy, you're not going to be happy when you find out what the French left on Aiguille du Midi..."

I hope to see for myself someday, but the thread specifically is for Cascades, and different areas certainly have different ethics. I think most would agree that there are greatly different ethics for French alpinists and American alpinists in their respective regions. Regardless of this as recently as June 2020 the updated Superintendent's Compendium for North Cascades National Park discourages the implementation of more fixed anchors. 

"Jokes aside, as GS and I bashed heads over, the main point is to use your best judgement and be safe. "

Cannot argue with safety, it is the primary concern. Better to fix a pin in a manic state of being gripped, then not and whip anyway.