TR Anchor Advice Needed

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Cherokee Nuneswrote:

Interesting approach. I've never known anyone to try this. Please post up the results of this effort? I am really curious.

Some of you were curious about the results of my request from the Forest Service. Here's what happened: The US Forest Service rejected my request to establish more permanent anchors at the crag. They also have prohibited climbing at the crag from now on. This is due to the fact that the Forest Service learned that the crag has historical, cultural, and spiritual significance to a local Native American tribe. I've been told to refrain from climbing at this crag from now on. 

Ben Lazarwrote:

Some of you were curious about the results of my request from the Forest Service. Here's what happened: The US Forest Service rejected my request to establish more permanent anchors at the crag. They also have prohibited climbing at the crag from now on. This is due to the fact that the Forest Service learned that the crag has historical, cultural, and spiritual significance to a local Native American tribe. I've been told to refrain from climbing at this crag from now on. 

Better to ask for forgiveness then permission.

That’s the standard answer my friend. 

Guy Keeseewrote:

Better to ask for forgiveness then permission.

That’s the standard answer my friend. 

I'll say this much. I tried to do things the right way by asking first.

I'm just surprised by all of this. People have climbed at this crag since the 90's. I probably should've just been quiet. 

Bummer! Thanks for the update. Did they offer any avenue for appeal? 

Unfortunately I have observed that it is much easier for people in those positions to say no than yes. Locally the access fund affiliate has had a project on hold for years pending an environmental impact study. They want to improve the base of half a dozen routes by removing a small trampled and bare clay slope (maybe 50 cubic feet) in the bottom of a heavily trafficked abandoned quarry. 

Ben Lazarwrote:

I'll say this much. I tried to do things the right way by asking first.

I'm just surprised by all of this. People have climbed at this crag since the 90's. I probably should've just kept my mouth shut. 

You shouldn’t be. Many of us guessed this would  be the outcome, and could have forwarded you. But on day one (of this thread) the FS was “already aware of your request” so the die was already cast at that point.

In hindsight do you you wish you had just TR’d off the fence post like climbers past?

Now you can involve your LCO trying to re-gain climbing access. 

Ben Lazarwrote:

I'll say this much. I tried to do things the right way by asking first.

I'm just surprised by all of this. People have climbed at this crag since the 90's. I probably should've just kept my mouth shut. 

Bingo!!!!      Those fence posts are most likely good enuf to set up a TR from- do the climbs- have fun- then return if you wish to climb more. But never ever ask the FS for permission to install anything. Q: The reason you never ask? A: You put some bureaucrat FS employee's butt on the line for you- a climber. Don’t you know Climbers are the lowlife on the list of the FS’s priorities.

But if you live in North Dakota I can’t fault you, your not exactly in “climbing country”.

Good day 

NickMartelwrote:

In hindsight do you you wish you had just TR’d off the fence post like climbers past?

Now you can involve your LCO trying to re-gain climbing access. 

In hindsight, yes. I climbed there a bunch this summer and the fence posts did the trick. I could've put in more fence posts myself once the old ones corroded and rusted out. However, that's not the most LNT step to take. 

Sadly, my local climbing organization is inactive at this point. I've thought about talking to the Access Fund but I don't know if it's worth it. 

Hopefully, as a result of this experience, you are now on team keep it secret keep it safe, don’t spray on MP, ask for forgiveness not permission...

Perspective takes time to develop, I too made mistakes when I was young and eager.

Now go find a new chunk of unclimbed rock.

Also I would guess the likelihood  of the +/- 1 FS ranger in ND waiting at the top of some obscure TR crag to ticket you for climbing are functionally = 0, although unfortunately you are now the one person who can no longer say they didn’t know.

Can you see the crag from the road/access point?

NickMartelwrote:

Hopefully, as a result of this experience, you are now on team keep it secret keep it safe, don’t spray on MP, ask for forgiveness not permission...

Perspective takes time to develop, I too made mistakes when I was young and eager.

Now go find a new chunk of unclimbed rock.

Also I would guess the likelihood  of the +/- 1 FS ranger in ND waiting at the top of some obscure TR crag to ticket you for climbing are functionally = 0, although unfortunately you are now the one person who can no longer say they didn’t know.

Can you see the crag from the road/access point?

Yeah, I'm still young in my climbing journey. I've been climbing for about 3 years now. There are other crags nearby I can visit, explore, and climb that are established and the Forest Service is okay with. They'll just take longer to drive to than this crag that just got shut down. 

Yes, the crag is very visible from the road. 

NickMartelwrote:

Hopefully, as a result of this experience, you are now on team keep it secret keep it safe, don’t spray on MP, ask for forgiveness not permission...

OP, I’m guessing the Native Americans that hold these lands sacred were happy you asked permission, rather than forgiveness. We, collectively, have offered them little more than that, if anything, ever.

Nice work getting the land protected. Sounds like there are much better options elsewhere anyway. 

Mikey Seamanwrote:

OP, I’m guessing the Native Americans that hold these lands sacred were happy you asked permission, rather than forgiveness. We, collectively, have offered them little more than that, if anything, ever.

Nice work getting the land protected. Sounds like there are much better options elsewhere anyway. 

I didn't talk with the tribe directly, the Forest Service did, but nevertheless, I'm happy to honor their ancestral homelands by no longer climbing there. I want to show my admiration and respect in any way I can. 

Our entire country is on land that is sacred to and stolen from Native Americans. I guess we all need to stop climbing, everywhere, now.

But seriously If this is true then the FS should give the land back to the tribe in question, but if it is to remain in National Forest then the FS should allow public access.

At this point in history, there is no going back and undoing the past to make things as they should be.

If I were Native American I think I would want reparations more than your admiration and respect, but that would cost you (us) something so it’s a bridge too far. It’s also an obligation we need to tackle via collective (goverment) action vs individual actions anyways, the debt is too overwhelming for an individual to think that their actions can have an affect on it  

Also I am sure the answer from the FS would have been no regardless. If not this, then they would have some pretext.

My whole point is that if you just quietly do you no one will know or care.

And really I don’t care anyways. I doubt I will be climbing in ND this life, so this does not affect my access to anything. 

But seriously If this is true then the FS should give the land back to the tribe in question, but if it is to remain in National Forest then the FS should allow public access.

To be fair, the Forest Service almost certainly have no jurisdiction over the land's ownership, likely only the land's use. They're sort of stuck with the worst of both worlds.