This redacted (renaming) routes is out of control!

This is so out of control. Who's in charge of this. This is an absolute classic route with the name "Slow Children" referencing the sign in front of the city park in town (the route below it is named city park. This name is by no means offensive and if we allow this, anything can be renamed, as someone can find offense in just about anything.

I understand some names of routes are very offensive, but so is a lot of very famous art. You don't see museums renaming and covering up offensive or controversial art. IMO putting up new routes is an art, and the artist has the right to name it what they want to. Freedom of speech. Do I think all the names are appropriate? Absolutely not, but where is it OK and where do you draw the line? I'm offended that this was thought offensive. So does that mean it needs to go back to it's original name? This is a huge can of worms that is just starting and already out of control.

saign charlesteinwrote:

This is so out of control. Who's in charge of this. This is an absolute classic route with the name "Slow Children" referencing the sign in front of the city park in town (the route below it is named city park. This name is by no means offensive and if we allow this, anything can be renamed, as someone can find offense in just about anything.

I understand some names of routes are very offensive, but so is a lot of very famous art. You don't see museums renaming and covering up offensive or controversial art. IMO putting up new routes is an art, and the artist has the right to name it what they want to. Freedom of speech. Do I think all the names are appropriate? Absolutely not, but where is it OK and where do you draw the line? I'm offended that this was thought offensive. So does that mean it needs to go back to it's original name? This is a huge can of worms that is just starting and already out of control.

Did you miss the dozen, or so, threads this year about renaming routes? It went on for weeks and got heated.

I'm offended by your figurative language. The very idea that worms contained in a can could be out of control!

What do you think we should do?

Nolan Yahok wrote:

What do you think we should do?

We should be able to flag the flagger. That way they’re banned from flagging non offensive route names

People are still whinging about MP taking down names they don't like? Or getting called out for making dumb jokes about stuff that matters? Get over yourselves. Go get a hobby or something. I hear rock climbing is getting popular.

Whoa! This topic is really underwhelming! I want to get angry too, please intensify the WLM shet posting!

Nolan Yahok wrote:

What do you think we should do?

Call the cops?

You can read about these changes (and future plans) here.

As noted in that post, there will be mistakes both ways. I agree this was one and have made the change (and made a note in the description of the route).

I'm with the OP. Redacting (cancelling) the name of that route is ridiculous to the point of being bizarre.

Routes who's names are offensive to such a degree that they need to be changed are far and few between. One such route was one of mine. An MP admin hit me up, very politely, to consider changing it. Squaws in Heat is now Custer's Last Stand. This climb is in Indian Country, an off the beaten track crag in Josh.

But if "cancel culture" gets control of route names a lot will be lost. There are innuendo's, puns, local references, features of the route, you name it, that can come off as improper when actually there's nothing wrong at all. "Slow Children" offensive? Hell, there's a sign just down the street from here that says "Slow Children Playing." I'm surprised my neighbors with kids haven't painted it over yet...

There's a route in Josh called Mongoloid. It's in a part of Josh called Siberia. Offensive? How about Frigidity, it's next to Female Mud Wrestler in Steve Canyon, Josh. Gripped Up the Hole, another one I just found in the Josh Guide index. No good for the kids? See where this can go? How about Scott Loomis' fine climb at Courtright he saw fit to name Millions of Dead Cops, after a San Francisco punk band? 

The Reverend Dick Shook, near Hidden Valley CG, takes its name from a roadside sign in front of a large church in Yucca Valley (a big town near Joshua Tree). Along with the dates and times of services, and the subject of next Sunday's sermon, the sign identified the Pastor as The Reverend Dick Shook. I think I'd have stayed with the formal name Richard, but there it was plain for all too see.

Nick, can we have an explanation of why the route name was changed when you un-redacted it? I thought this was just called "Slow Children?" In your other post you said that route names are not going to be forced to change, just redacted. I'm not against changing or redacting truly offensive names. I think many of us are just confused about the changes that have been made to the improve page function and how it is being implemented.

I didn't change the name.  Maybe the OP did.

It looks like three other routes in that same area have had their names redacted. Does anyone know what those names were? I just leafed through the guide, and didn't see anything that could be construed as offensive...

Also from 1984: “It's a beautiful thing, the destruction of words.” 

Kristian Solemwrote:

It looks like three other routes in that same area have had their names redacted. Does anyone know what those names were? I just leafed through the guide, and didn't see anything that could be construed as offensive...

Also from 1984: “It's a beautiful thing, the destruction of words.” 

Dr sniff and the tuna boaters is one. Offensive? It’s childish, but so bad it should be renamed?

Nobody tosses a dwarf is the other, which I believe is in reference to a lord of the rings quote.  Ben Gilkenson (who put up and named the route) is 4’11”. Someone should ask him if it’s offensive.

God bless you, Nick, the level of grown man toddler time on display is already mind numbing, I can only imagine what eye rollingly glorious heights shall be reached.

People- the real names of those climbs has not changed. Mt. Project and Mr. Wilder have shown US all what the definition of hubris really is.

So I’m sure the good climbers of South Carolina, Massachusetts, Washington and all of the other states really don’t give a rip about that at all.

Do you really believe this site is the end all repository of the record?

Come on get a grip!

So when you look at your guide books are the names changed?

He can do what he wants- He owns the place. You don’t need to give the owners of this place the time of day, much less route information. 

Kristian Solemwrote:

It looks like three other routes in that same area have had their names redacted. Does anyone know what those names were? I just leafed through the guide, and didn't see anything that could be construed as offensive...

Also from 1984: “It's a beautiful thing, the destruction of words.” 

If you go to the route and click on the little "i" for "more info" it tells you the name.

Nick Wilderwrote:

I didn't change the name.  Maybe the OP did.

I received a request to change the name from a local climber. I contacted the first ascentionist, and he preferred a slightly different tweak to the name. Based on this, the route is now called "Slow, Children [at play]" on it's MP page. It's not perfect, but people should still be able to find the route and it's pretty clear that it's not derogatory.

I didn't know who had added the context in the description, thanks Nick. I tweaked it slightly with info from the FA (turns out the name references a road sign, but not one that actually exists at Index).

Z Winters I didn't realize there was only one first ascentionist. (Or do you mean FFA) I am assuming you meant the person who was on the sharp end by limiting it to one person.  If not then what is the criteria?  Please clarify.  Also, would it matter if a non local complained?  By local do you mean an Index resident?

By the way - there is a route name at Index specifical chosen as a jibe at me.  If I ask for a change, does it change? If not, why not?

I have another question you could add to the FAQ on redacted names.

Is there a way for people to add their own input?

For instance I don't see this name as problematic:  Trail of Tears.  To me it is a memorial that mostly educates about a terrible event.

Will all references to tragedies be erased as route names?  What about genocides such as the Armenian/Greek/Assyrian by the Ottomans, Jewish Holocaust, Nanjing Massacre, Mongol Conquest, genocides in Tulsa, Rwanda, Sudan, Ireland, Ethiopia, Cambodia, China, Brazil, Croatia, USSR, etc.?   In all cases, any epic on a route is trivial compared to the offense of the genocide, so does the route name have to be censored?

What about mass bombings:  Dresden, Blitz, Cambodia, Syria, Japan, etc.?

Mass industrial poisonings?

Darryl Cramerwrote:

Z Winters I didn't realize there was only one first ascentionist. (Or do you mean FFA) I am assuming you meant the person who was on the sharp end by limiting it to one person.  If not then what is the criteria?  Please clarify.  Also, would it matter if a non local complained?  By local do you mean an Index resident?

By the way - there is a route name at Index specifical chosen as a jibe at me.  If I ask for a change, does it change? If not, why not?

He was referring to me.  

I don't know what to think about all this. But for you, certainly I'd make the change. Or destroy the route.