A Problem

John RBwrote:

The louder the better, in fact.

Well - what they really want is power at the lowest possible weight - and it turns out the "best" and most economical way to solve that equation is basically a 2 stroke with a minimal muffler.  I don't like the noise either, but I'm a lot more okay with it than the massive amount of destruction a single bike can do off trail - and a lot of those d-bags go off trail.  Noise is gone in a minute - a ripped up track can take years to come back, if ever out in the desert.

If I am ever in a place that has motorcycles, usually the place is so awesome, I dont care.  This goes for Hiking, backpacking, climbing and mountain biking.

Places that allow motorcycling in California are rare. 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

So is bolting climbs, putting chalk on climbs, interfering with bird nesting, driving to the climbing area, swimming near the climbing area, yelling about your sweet send, the metal used to make your climbing gear, the literal rubber made for your climbing shoe, building that access road to your climb, preserving access to your climb, removing debris near your climb, the trees killed for your climb, the plastic used for the climbing gym, quality lumber used for climbing walls, the list goes on. Dirt biking is definitely worse, but from the perspective of a bird watcher, a keen environmentalist, a hiker, rock climbing isn't some eco friendly hobby no matter how much stuff/how many Patagonia ads you hear.

Bolting climbs:  Once a crag is established, bolting does not take place every Saturday and Sunday in the Spring, Summer and Fall.  

Putting chalk on climbs:  The chalk is typically not visible until very close to the cliff therefore doesn't interfere with anyone trying to enjoy the general area.

Interfering with bird nesting: Climbers don't interfere with bird nesting.  They respect closures during nesting season.

driving to the climbing area: Climbers drive to a certain spot, then hike to the crag and at the end of the day, they drive home.  ATVs drive aimlessly ALL DAY LONG.

Swimming near the climbing area:  Pretty sure this is not an issue.  

yelling about your sweet send: An occasional yell pales in comparison to 14 hours of engine noise.

the metal used to make your climbing gear:  This is an environmental impact but does not noticeably impact the climbing area the way ATVs do.

the literal rubber made for your climbing shoe:  Again, no noticeable impact on the crag.

building that access road to your climb: states don't build roads specifically for climbers. 

preserving access to your climb: This is typically done with manual tools and rarely involves major alterations of the landscape.

removing debris near your climb:  Very little impact.

the trees killed for your climb:  This is typically not an acceptable route development practice and is very rare.

the plastic used for the climbing gym:  I'm not talking about the gym. I'm talking about outdoor climbing areas.

quality lumber used for climbing walls: see above

Bill Schickwrote:

Well - what they really want is power at the lowest possible weight - and it turns out the "best" and most economical way to solve that equation is basically a 2 stroke with a minimal muffler.  I don't like the noise either, but I'm a lot more okay with it than the massive amount of destruction a single bike can do off trail - and a lot of those d-bags go off trail.  Noise is gone in a minute - a ripped up track can take years to come back, if ever out in the desert.

As someone who dirt biked everyday of every summer in my childhood this seems like inaccurate speculation. My own father silenced my first two stroke dirt bike and if you type in how to make dirt bikes quieter there are a ton of results all the large manufactures make silencers for dirt bikes, so dirt bikers being uniformly for louder bikes is false (too clarify you have to have a silencer of some kind on your bike its just if being loud was important they would probably re brand it or there would be less aftermarket parts). Secondly removing the expansion chamber from a two stroke makes it both louder and perform worse it also weighs less than a pound. As someone who has caved in their expansion chamber multiple times I can tell you your bike would perform better with one.  Third I would like to know where you see people go off trail, in the pacific northwest most dirt biking areas are in clearcuts (so already damaged environments) and while I love hard dirt biking trails riding 10 feet through a clearcut is nearly impossible. Also no one rides two strokes anymore, I haven't ridden much in recent years but less that 20% of bikes on the trail are two strokes and those are often kids bikes. Specifically to your desert comment, I have never ridden in a desert environment on public land it has always been private. While erosion is definitely a concern in the wilderness, I don't see how having 1000s of hiking trails is okay but having small contained dirt bike areas we magically now care about erosion.   Keep playing up stereotypes.

I’ve fought a long and ongoing battle with motorbikes at Fairview Mtn. It’s not so much the noise that bothers me, it is the damage they do to the mountain. 

Kevin Cochranwrote:

Bolting climbs:  Once a crag is established, bolting does not take place every Saturday and Sunday in the Spring, Summer and Fall.  

Putting chalk on climbs:  The chalk is typically not visible until very close to the cliff therefore doesn't interfere with anyone trying to enjoy the general area.

Interfering with bird nesting: Climbers don't interfere with bird nesting.  They respect closures during nesting season.

driving to the climbing area: Climbers drive to a certain spot, then hike to the crag and at the end of the day, they drive home.  ATVs drive aimlessly ALL DAY LONG.

Swimming near the climbing area:  Pretty sure this is not an issue.  

yelling about your sweet send: An occasional yell pales in comparison to 14 hours of engine noise.

the metal used to make your climbing gear:  This is an environmental impact but does not noticeably impact the climbing area the way ATVs do.

the literal rubber made for your climbing shoe:  Again, no noticeable impact on the crag.

building that access road to your climb: states don't build roads specifically for climbers. 

preserving access to your climb: This is typically done with manual tools and rarely involves major alterations of the landscape.

removing debris near your climb:  Very little impact.

the trees killed for your climb:  This is typically not an acceptable route development practice and is very rare.

the plastic used for the climbing gym:  I'm not talking about the gym. I'm talking about outdoor climbing areas.

quality lumber used for climbing walls: see above

But the bolts are there forever. In extreme cases you get a ten sleep situation, where the rock is altered forever.

Chalk is absolutely visible, given the number of people in smith who think bird poop is on everything.

Climbers absolutely interfere with bird nesting, go climb in rumney and walk past the bird closures or the red for its restoration process. Climbers also climb in places not commonly traveled and interfering with ecosystems that could be totally free of human interaction.  Dirt biking is in mostly ecosystems destroyed by logging or other resource extraction. If all climbers are good stewards I guess areas getting closed like roadside crag in the red or the pound in rumney shouldn't be happening.

People bathe in the river next to rumney and exit 38 (although they are mostly homeless and not climbers I think) using soap so it is for sure an issue in some places.

If you have ever ridden, you would know most people talk about riding for 12 hours and ride like 2 hours. Also there are climbs that require a 3 hour slow crawl through the woods with high a high clearance vehicle. In many places the actual path to the climbing area is largely dependent on their having been a logging operation (gold bar, the entire existence of powell river valley). 

You are caught up comparing dirt biking to climbing when I am comparing climbing to environmental stewardship. So the machining of metal could definitely be bad for the environment. 

Removing debris between developing a rock climb and developing a dirt bike trail is pretty comparable although dirt bike trails are significantly longer. 

Killing trees is absolutely a problem, look at any place that relies on natural pro (pawtuckaway state park) and I have seen trees killed in index mid climb but people don't notice because they don't want to notice. Especially anything that requires trundling, trees just explode. Also, I know more route developers that use sawzalls than don't, people think all the crack climbs in index were magically clean, when in truth they had a ton of foilage in them.

The climbing gym is definitely worth considering, considering the fact that most climbers spend half their climbing days in the gym (Anyone who thinks most people don't climb in a gym is in full denial). Climbing gyms wouldn't exist if their weren't some initial motivation for training outside. Excluding them from consideration of the net impact of rock climbing on the environment is not actually considering the entire impact they have. But if we can exclude half the climbing most people do, maybe we should only count dirt bikers who ride 250cc four strokes.

I am not saying climbing is worse than dirt biking but that acting like climbing is some pure sport that has no impact on the environment is unjustifiable. If you believe dirt biking should be banned for its environmental impact, I don't see how climbing would be immune to this logic forever (especially alpine climbs).

Stephen Cwrote:

 I also find it annoying when rafts and kayaks come down a river I'm fishing. They have a right to be there too so what do i do? I go somewhere else. 

 well I find it annoying when I'm kayaking and there's a bunch of fishermen standing in the middle of the best lines. Especially when the water is low sometime this is not a lot of options of where to go.

june mwrote:

 well I find it annoying when I'm kayaking and there's a bunch of fishermen standing in the middle of the best lines. Especially when the water is low sometime this is not a lot of options of where to go.

you must be into some exceptionally boring kayaking if fly fishers are taking your best lines. everybody has a right to be there. if you don't like it go somewhere else.

Stephen Cwrote:

you must be into some exceptionally boring kayaking if fly fishers are taking your best lines. everybody has a right to be there. if you don't like it go somewhere else.

I've definitely had fisherman standing in the middle of class 3 Rapids. And that's enough for me .not everybody paddles class 5 just like not everybody climbs 5.13. Unfortunately when you put in on the river you can't tell who's fly fishing Downstream. And over the noise of the Rapids the fishermen don't hear you. I try to keep my distance but sometimes it's difficult. It seems like I like to play in the same Rapids that they like to fish in but I move Downstream. I understand that fishermen have the right to be there too but if it's as you say a "boring" run and they are in the middle of the best part I don't get to Surf and that's disappointing.

The best part of public lands is the land. The worst part is the public.

John RBwrote:

The main issue with pickup trucks, ATVs, motorcycles, motorboats, etc., isn't just that they're loud, but oftentimes their owners WANT them to be loud.  The louder the better, in fact.  It's common for climbing areas to be in canyons with a road down the middle.  And guess who loves to ride up and down the canyon with no muffler?

Planes/helicopters aren't made deliberately louder (afaik) but they can drown out any/all conversation when they're overhead and nowhere is safe because they too like the wilderness.

I'm aghast that our laws allow the recreation of a few people to pollute the environments of so many others.

You're really cherry picking here.  

I have no idea why pickup trucks is included in your list.  Most of them are stock and used for trades (electricians, plumbers, etc.)  People mod the hell out of ALL cars, not just pickup trucks. Regarding modding in general, it is a small subset of the overall population.  Not saying it doesn't happen and I'm not saying it can't be annoying but, it is definitely not a majority.

The same goes for motorcycles (I cannot speak on motorboats as I have no experience with them).  People mod them but, the number is slim.  It is not a status symbol to have a loud ass bike, it is just kind of a fucking nuisance for everyone around.  This is just a blatant falsehood.  I grew up riding dirt bikes (I haven't ridden in years) and not ONCE did I hear anyone brag about how their bike was super loud.  Obviously, like with the car world, there are people who do want to make their bikes louder.  But once again, that is a minority.  Your misrepresentation of the minority as the majority is not only blatantly incorrect but immature as well.  You have absolutely no right to say that your hobby should be legally prioritized over someone else's just because you don't like it.

Everything you do has an impact, climbing isn't great for the environment either.  Certainly to a lesser degree than OHV but, there's no moral high ground to be had as a climber.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

As someone who dirt biked everyday of every 

Lol - so are you a 3 minute mile biker?

JonasMRwrote:

The best part of public lands is the land. The worst part is the public.

10/10

Bill Schickwrote:

Lol - so are you a 3 minute mile biker?

I am confused. If your referring to the running thread yes I ran in college and dirt bike rode. I can send you my Tffrs, atheltic.net link, strava and pictures of my bike in a DM if you are that curious. My high school cross country team was made up of self identified red necks and enviromentalists. Some of the most successful runners have become extremely conservative politicans (Jim Ryun for example). I am definitely not a 3 minute miler for two reasons because according to the other thread I have to be able to run a 3 minute mile in any conditions or environment and secondly I can't even run a sub 4 min 1500 (I think my PR in the 1500 is 4:07 but some college races are missing from the interwebs). 

Nate Awrote:

Lol. I’m aghast that someone believes their own personal experience needs to be protected via laws legislating how others have an experience.

This is literally how a functioning society is organized.

Loud dirt bikes are nasty.  The 50 year old excuse that they need to be loud to have more than 20 horse power has long ago been overcome by technology.  And loud snowmobiles and street motorcycles are just as bad.  The lack of enforcement of reasonable noise limits is appalling.

JonasMRwrote:

The best part of public lands is the land. The worst part is the public.

This quote is art. 

Ryan Bondwrote:

Oh shut up you whiny prick. Boo hoo the public is using public lands in a way I dont like! 

Don't want noise like that? Try going into a wilderness. 

Was that attack really necessary?

Reese Stanleywrote:

You're really cherry picking here.  

I have no idea why pickup trucks is included in your list.  Most of them are stock and used for trades (electricians, plumbers, etc.)  People mod the hell out of ALL cars, not just pickup trucks. Regarding modding in general, it is a small subset of the overall population.  Not saying it doesn't happen and I'm not saying it can't be annoying but, it is definitely not a majority.

The same goes for motorcycles (I cannot speak on motorboats as I have no experience with them).  People mod them but, the number is slim.  It is not a status symbol to have a loud ass bike, it is just kind of a fucking nuisance for everyone around.  This is just a blatant falsehood.  I grew up riding dirt bikes (I haven't ridden in years) and not ONCE did I hear anyone brag about how their bike was super loud.  Obviously, like with the car world, there are people who do want to make their bikes louder.  But once again, that is a minority.  Your misrepresentation of the minority as the majority is not only blatantly incorrect but immature as well.  You have absolutely no right to say that your hobby should be legally prioritized over someone else's just because you don't like it.

Everything you do has an impact, climbing isn't great for the environment either.  Certainly to a lesser degree than OHV but, there's no moral high ground to be had as a climber.

Then why are Harleys consistently louder and more obnoxious than any other road worthy vehicle? To save lives? Ever been on a wall in Yosemite when they roll in?