Z4 potential design flaw?

I’ve put those Z4 offsets (and a couple normal sizes) through the ringer this summer season. No trigger wire issues, no “flaw” with uneven lobe retraction. They’ve been great cams. Once you trigger it all evens out if kinked. 

Alex Zadrogawrote:

Personally I was very excited about there’s because they have the narrowest design available. Being that I’m a gunks climber that’s the first thing I look at because it can be very useful in thin quartzite horizontals or any irregular crack system. I personally hate the c4’s because of how wide they are (I can never find a placement when I really need it) so I plan on buying and modifying mine. But I did wait for just that reason, some new thing are shit and some can be improved on but are still better then older models. 

What exactly do you plan on modifying?

Sam Oudekerkwrote:

Any real-world stories of this design "flaw/step backward"? I think the small Z4s look great and I'm thinking of buying some. If there are climbers out there who are constantly being hindered by this WHILE CLIMBING please speak up and save me the hassle.

Also, do UL Master Cams have this issue?

I believe my original post qualifies as a real-world story.  I noticed this issue mid-route and couldn't place the cam.  And as I mentioned, if they are in this position, simply pulling the trigger does not even things out as another person commented, you have to manually manipulate the lobes to get them equalized again.  I still climb with them regularly and have learned to deal with it, but it is annoying and something that just doesn't happen on the small X4s. 

rocknice2wrote:

What exactly do you plan on modifying?

I just plan on crimping the wire to close the loop, should fix the problem and remain easy to fix on the wall!

Alex Zadrogawrote:

I just plan on crimping the wire to close the loop, should fix the problem and remain easy to fix on the wall!

I wouldn't do that. Especially on the smaller cams, which have short cables. In uneven cracks where one set of lobes is more contacted than the other, the cables need to exit the trigger. There isn't enough flex in the cables to compensate for the different lengths needed. In larger cams with longer cables this isn't a big problem. The springs are also stronger forcing the cams open and into the rock. If the wires are glued or crimped to the trigger both sets of cams will conform to the more constricted set. 

rocknice2wrote:

I wouldn't do that. Especially on the smaller cams, which have short cables. In uneven cracks where one set of lobes is more contacted than the other, the cables need to exit the trigger. There isn't enough flex in the cables to compensate for the different lengths needed. In larger cams with longer cables this isn't a big problem. The springs are also stronger forcing the cams open and into the rock. If the wires are glued or crimped to the trigger both sets of cams will conform to the more constricted set. 

Ok thank you for the input! Once I have my own to tinker with and find a more viable solution I’ll be sure to make a post with details on the pros/cons and exactly what I did. 

Totem Basics also used a single loop of wire, but the design of the trigger wire attachment is a bit different from that of the Z4s:

There is a metal bead attached to the trigger wire at the midpoint. The bead sits in a groove. The holes that the wire passes through are generously sized.

It might be possible to add a similar bead to the Z4 to prevent the wires from shifting.

EDIT: To be clear, the bead cannot move along the wire. It is fixed in place on the wire somehow.

Hangdog Stevewrote:

Totem Basics also used a single loop of wire, but the design of the trigger wire attachment is a bit different from that of the Z4s:

There is a metal bead attached to the trigger wire at the midpoint. The bead sits in a groove. The holes that the wire passes through are generously sized.

It might be possible to add a similar bead to the Z4 to prevent the wires from shifting.

Might try just a small ziptie on each size.

The totem solution looks viable. I believe it would prevent the issue I'm experiencing while still allowing the uneven placement that Rocknice2 mentioned.

Hmm, a dab of solder on the wire at midpoint could do the trick. May try this actually...

abandon moderation wrote:

Reviving this thread since it seems a few people here have the Z4s... Just got the .2/3 offset and the stoppers on the lobe don't engage so the lobes can flip the wrong direction?

Looking at an X4 they don't even have stoppers so maybe it's intentional, but the design looks like it's supposed to be like the C3s where the stoppers will keep the lobes from flipping the wrong direction. Are all the single axle Z4s like this?

It shouldn't matter, since single axle cams aren't rated for mushroomed out placements. Aliens look the same. 

abandon moderation wrote:

Reviving this thread since it seems a few people here have the Z4s... Just got the .2/3 offset and the stoppers on the lobe don't engage so the lobes can flip the wrong direction?

Looking at an X4 they don't even have stoppers so maybe it's intentional, but the design looks like it's supposed to be like the C3s where the stoppers will keep the lobes from flipping the wrong direction. Are all the single axle Z4s like this?

Those are called "cam stops". They aren't relevant in active placements, since the lobes should never be anywhere near that extended in an active placement. So they should only be relevant in passive placements.

It looks like you're holding an offset 0.2/0.3. The manual (which can be found here) seems to indicate that 0.2 and smaller, and 0.2/0.3 offset and smaller, aren't rated for passive placements. I'm not sure why they would bother to manufacture them with cam stops if they aren't rated for passive placement, but at least I can say that your cam is behaving in line with what's in the manual:

Alex Zadrogawrote:

Ok thank you for the input! Once I have my own to tinker with and find a more viable solution I’ll be sure to make a post with details on the pros/cons and exactly what I did. 

Got one, .2, it’s shit. I weighted it once and the lobes don’t engage right. Now I have to extend the wires. 

Alex Zadrogawrote:

Got one, .2, it’s shit. I weighted it once and the lobes don’t engage right. Now I have to extend the wires. 

I had a similar reaction. Love the .3-.75, but the .02 is strange. I would assume the .1 and 0 are as well. Still looking for a good small cam to compliment my ULMCs - especially in horizontal placements.

Chris Fedorczakwrote:

I had a similar reaction. Love the .3-.75, but the .02 is strange. I would assume the .1 and 0 are as well. Still looking for a good small cam to compliment my ULMCs - especially in horizontal placements.

You may want to check out the Dragonflies. I have a full rack of ULMCs and a double rack of Totems, and I picked up the smallest three Dragonflies to protect sizes smaller than the black Totem (see size comparison here). My experience with them has been fairly positive--they tend to seat well and the smallest one has held a significant whipper and still looks good.

If you're looking to protect the same range as the Z4 0 to .2, you'll actually need four cams as the Dragonflies have a narrower expansion range (see size comparison here). This can be a positive or a negative--it costs more money to have more cams, but I think the cams work a bit better for their respective ranges, and if you have a range of options it can keep you from running out of protection as quickly. With cams this small they're all fairly light so I don't think the weight is particularly relevant.

Chris Fedorczakwrote:

I had a similar reaction. Love the .3-.75, but the .02 is strange. I would assume the .1 and 0 are as well. Still looking for a good small cam to compliment my ULMCs - especially in horizontal placements.

These were going to be just that for me, there so narrow they go everywhere. Too bad bd has let there quality get so poor. 

I have no idea what you're describing for the last few comments, I've bounced happily on all three of the smallest pieces, and fallen on the .1, no issues as far as I can find. 

I'm guessing the main reason for the single trigger wire is that it allows for narrower head widths. The head on the Z4 is pretty narrow, at least if I compare to other stuff I rack.

Now that you describe it, I think the exact same issue happened to me late this summer - my second took ages to get out a red Z4. I'm pretty sure there wasn't anything with the placement that should have made it prone to being hard to remove (but then no leader ever does). But the way he described the lobes once he got there and why it was hard to remove was pretty consistent with what you described. I don't place it often, but it's good to know.