Z4 potential design flaw?

I recently purchased a set of Z4 offsets to complement my rack of C4s, X4s, and WC Friends.  My initial impressions of the Z4s were extremely positive and I loved the new rigid/flexible stem design as well as the narrow head width.  However, after using for a few weeks, I discovered a potential design flaw in the smaller, single axle Z4s.  Unfortunately I discovered this issue while trying to place it mid route; I ended up not being able to retract the lobes and had to climb through to a different placement above.  

The issue is that all Z4s use a single cable looped through trigger mechanism to retract the lobes.  As this is a single loop of wire, the lobes can shift making one side hyperextended and the other side partially retracted.  When this happens, squeezing the trigger doesn't allow you to retract the lobes as one side is already retracted, making the placement of the cam impossible.  It is easy enough to adjust the wire and reset the lobes, but not something you want to deal with mid-route.  This isn't an issue on the larger, double axle Z4s as the 2nd axle prevents the lobes from hyper extending and keeps the wire centered.  I believe BD knew about this issue previously because the larger double axle X4s have the same single loop design but the smaller single axle X4s have independent wires that terminate at the trigger mechanism.  These independent wires prevented the issue entirely.  I cannot come up with a reason why BD would have abandoned this design on the Z4s as it is very problematic.  Now that the wire has shifted once, I have experienced the offset multiple times and now make it a habit to check that one cam for proper lobe balance every time I rack it.

Z4 .2-.3 Offset Single Axle with loop of wire through trigger mechanism

X4 .1 Single Axle with independent wires terminated at trigger mechanism (for comparison)


What can happen to lobes if loop of wire slides off center.  One side of lobes are hyperextended while the opposite side is partially retracted.  In this scenario, pulling the trigger does not allow lobes to retract as intended, making it impossible to place the cam into a crack.

this is a fairly common issue with a lot of small cams, for example some of the old aliens with a similar trigger cable.  what i usually do if the lobes are funky is to tap it head first into the rock face to straighten them out.

slimwrote: this is a fairly common issue with a lot of small cams, for example some of the old aliens with a similar trigger cable.  what i usually do if the lobes are funky is to tap it head first into the rock face to straighten them out.

That was my buddy's response as well.  I guess my question is why is it even an issue?  BD solved this with the X4 design so why the step backwards?

immediately saw this issue with my red/yellow Z4 offset when i got it. irritating and the reason why I didn't bother getting any additional Z4s and don't plan to.

it still blows my mind the extent to which people are willing to purchase new cam designs. It's an expensive purchase, and cams last a good while.  They are various tried-and-true designs out there (C4, c3, totems come to mind)--- seems like a big risk to buy a new cam design, given that it likely will be inferior to what's already out there. 

MPwrote: it still blows my mind the extent to which people are willing to purchase new cam designs. It's an expensive purchase, and cams last a good while.  They are various tried-and-true designs out there (C4, c3, totems come to mind)--- seems like a big risk to buy a new cam design, given that it likely will be inferior to what's already out there. 

Someone needs to buy and use the new designs in order for these flaws to become known. Luckily there are plenty of people with an abundance of money who love buying the shiny new toys to show off their wealth. That's the entire business model of the iPhone. 

chris pwrote:

Someone needs to buy and use the new designs in order for these flaws to become known. Luckily there are plenty of people with an abundance of money who love buying the shiny new toys to show off their wealth. That's the entire business model of the iPhone. 

Seems weird to say they are doing it to show off their wealth when the overriding culture of climbing shuns perceived wealth, and a lot more people enjoy LARPing as dirtbags.

Maybe they are just risk-averse and willing to spend money on the chance that they feel better protected on climbs?

uhhh....isn't it as simple as manually correcting the lobe back into its fully expanded state? this creates slack in the cable. then reverse the looped cable out of the trigger and slide 'slack' towards the other lobes direction. There is probably a better way to explain this, but i really don't give a shite.

this trigger design is in fact superior to the x4s in that it's easier to repair 'in the field'.

but thats just like....my opinion man.

and uh also.... you're undoubtedly going to die.

JCS

Common on the old aliens.  Hardly a design "flaw".  Irritating (my old red alien does this profusely), but not a flaw.  You could just use some superglue or something to make a small bead so the wire doesn't slip.

jackscoldsweatwrote: uhhh....isn't it as simple as manually correcting the lobe back into its fully expanded state? this creates slack in the cable. then reverse the looped cable out of the trigger and slide 'slack' towards the other lobes direction. There is probably a better way to explain this, but i really don't give a shite.

this trigger design is in fact superior to the x4s in that it's easier to repair 'in the field'.

Yeah, as I mentioned it is "easy enough" to fix but not something I want to deal with while I'm cruxing out trying to place a cam.  This wasn't an issue with the X4s so not sure why you're saying it is superior to be able repair something in the field when it doesn't need to be repaired on the X4 design in the first place.  

Charlie Swrote: Common on the old aliens.  Hardly a design "flaw".  Irritating (my old red alien does this profusely), but not a flaw.  You could just use some superglue or something to make a small bead so the wire doesn't slip.

If the previous design used on X4 didn't have this issue but the new design on the Z4 does, I would call that a flaw.  Just because the issue exists among other brands doesn't mean it isn't a flaw.  

Michael Parkerwrote:

Yeah, as I mentioned it is "easy enough" to fix but not something I want to deal with while I'm cruxing out trying to place a cam.  This wasn't an issue with the X4s so not sure why you're saying it is superior to be able repair something in the field when it doesn't need to be repaired on the X4 design in the first place.  

cables on x4s break all the time. 

perhaps how you're fixing it is incorrect? put a glob of epoxy on the bite end of the wire and 'mark it 8 dude'.

pick you're poison. pepsi or coke? two or single continuous cable? we already know the answer. diet.

JCS

Michael Parkerwrote:

If the previous design used on X4 didn't have this issue but the new design on the Z4 does, I would call that a flaw.  Just because the issue exists among other brands doesn't mean it isn't a flaw.  

It's a "flaw" in the same way that a V6 has lower horsepower than a V8.  Flaw implies error, dangerous, and liability.  All gear has pros and cons.  A flaw would be if it failed to meet its stated rating or the cables broke in early use.

Rob T wrote: More a trade off than a flaw. Didn’t happen with the X4, but bent, eventually cut, trigger wires did.  My guess is the decision was driven by a desire to reduce the number of warranty/repair claims at the cost of a few consumers being turned off by a design feature that’s quite common on the market.

Good point, I wasn't aware that X4s experienced that many failures in their trigger wires.  They used a more rigid wire on smaller cams while the Z4s use a braided cable.  I can see how switching from rigid to braided cables would reduce issues caused by bent or cut wires but still don't see why they would go to a loop instead of individually terminated braided cables.  Either way, I see your point, could simply be a cost savings either in manufacturing or forecasted savings in warranty repairs as you stated.  I guess a trade off is a more apt description.

i would definitely call the new Z4 trigger configuration a step backwards.  i would also say that there are more problems with busted trigger cables with this configuration (single cable through trigger var) versus the independent wires.  i have repaired a ton of triggers over the years and i can't remember repairing any that had the independent wires.

To the OP: Most posts on Mtn Proj are useless and uninformative. Your post was not one of them. Thanks for the useful info.

Charlie Swrote: Common on the old aliens.  Hardly a design "flaw".  Irritating (my old red alien does this profusely), but not a flaw.  You could just use some superglue or something to make a small bead so the wire doesn't slip.

If you glue them, do this test afterwards: squeeze the trigger, then hold one pair of lobes closed while you release the trigger. See if the non-held pair of lobes open all the way. Some tightly-wired CCH Aliens failed this test. It can result in effective 2-lobe placements in an uneven crack. Independent wires in the later CCH units fixed this issue.

Any real-world stories of this design "flaw/step backward"? I think the small Z4s look great and I'm thinking of buying some. If there are climbers out there who are constantly being hindered by this WHILE CLIMBING please speak up and save me the hassle.

Also, do UL Master Cams have this issue?

Sam Oudekerkwrote:

Also, do UL Master Cams have this issue?

UL Mastercams have no problems except: 

1) No thumb loop to clip while you're fake climbing

2) Lack of cache/newness/snazziness. Although the new burnt orange color of the #3 is very hip. 

This is trivially easy to correct, even one handed. Been climbing with Z4s (and not to show off my "wealth", lol) for a little bit and just do a quick wire reset while I'm racking. No big deal. 

MPwrote: it still blows my mind the extent to which people are willing to purchase new cam designs. It's an expensive purchase, and cams last a good while.  They are various tried-and-true designs out there (C4, c3, totems come to mind)--- seems like a big risk to buy a new cam design, given that it likely will be inferior to what's already out there. 

Personally I was very excited about there’s because they have the narrowest design available. Being that I’m a gunks climber that’s the first thing I look at because it can be very useful in thin quartzite horizontals or any irregular crack system. I personally hate the c4’s because of how wide they are (I can never find a placement when I really need it) so I plan on buying and modifying mine. But I did wait for just that reason, some new thing are shit and some can be improved on but are still better then older models.