5.12a trad send comparison to other sport accomplishments

That is not what he said. Kris never said 5.12 is an outliner. He was in a conversation with another person who said he was fat, short, & old. 

40 is just barely out of puberty. Valentino Rossi is 41 & still racing in MotoGP. Sagel Page was 50 when he tossed his first pitch in MLB. 

Life is 95% psychological & the other 50% is mental!

Mark Frumkinwrote:

That is not what he said. Kris never said 5.12 is an outliner. He was in a conversation with another person who said he was fat, short, & old. 

40 is just barely out of puberty. Valentino Rossi is 41 & still racing in MotoGP. Sagel Page was 50 when he tossed his first pitch in MLB. 

Life is 95% psychological & the other 50% is mental!

I wish Rossi was still a contender though :(

Rossi still hit the podium a few times last season. the problem is that Marcos is so good and honda is also so good. 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

Rossi still hit the podium a few times last season. the problem is that Marcos is so good and honda is also so good. 

Not to derail this thread too much, but arguably the Honda is pretty much just tailored to Marquez since every other Honda rider is consistently on the back half of the grid (especially Lorenzo :( ), but totally agreed that Marquez is just on another level entirely. 

With climbing though you can almost always compensate for physical ability through bravery. 5.11-5.12 trad is where the two really mix it up. 

Leronwrote:

When I read this, I understand that you must believe that your opinion is correct despite evidence to the contrary. To say that he is obviously an outlier is based on what? (Your peer group and personal experience?)

I personal climb with many people that fit the category of 5.12-5.14 climbers and only a few of them are what I would call outliers. Most get to the level that they are willing to work for. The 5.13 and 5.14 guys put in a lot effort. They watch their diet and work on their head game. They have specific goals and set a plan to achieve them. The 5.12 guys just go climbing and push themselves. That is enough for that level for most people.

 I think a lot of it is just the group you climb with.  Some of these people are over 50 and still sending 5.14 others are under 20 and can crush that grade. 

The best example I can think of is a couple that got a relatively late start. Chuck started in his late twenties early thirties and then got up to 5.14 and has even repeated a few after 60.  He meet his current partner latter in life. She had no expectations to climb at his level at first but now in her 50's she has sent 5.14b. They are dedicated to climbing and strong for sure, but they worked for it and are not genetic freaks.  

The guy said he was short, fat, old, and overworked. Under those circumstances if he can RP .12a trad, he is an outlier. Only a lack of reading comp could lead you to think that I said 5.12 climbers are outliers.

Regarding the big numbers you mention, are they on trad climbs? Outdoors? Indoors? Inquiring minds must know.

There is a reason, you know, that the hardest climbs are bolted sport, or even more impressively, boulders.

Kristian Solemwrote:

The guy said he was short, fat, old, and overworked. Under those circumstances if he can RP .12a trad, he is an outlier. Only a lack of reading comp could lead you to think that I said 5.12 climbers are outliers.

Regarding the big numbers you mention, are they on trad climbs? Outdoors? Indoors? Inquiring minds must know.

There is a reason, you know, that the hardest climbs are bolted sport, or even more impressively, boulders.

All my hardest sends are in fact indoor trad climbs.

nathanaelwrote:

Eh.. no. 12a trad is more difficult, When you account for all the things that make something difficult, including the skills and techniques required.

But I guess the comparisons to running in this thread are stripping away more of the skill considerations and focusing on the athletic feat. The golf comparisons lie more on the other side of the spectrum. Climbing is somewhere in between.

Um.. no. Maybe if you are a sport climber and trad has unknown components, but not if you climb both, or mostly trad. Grades are subjective, sure, but a 12a sport and a 12a trad are both 12a and pretty much the same in difficulty. Until the last few years, I had sent many more trad 12s than sport 12s, because that is mainly what I was interested in and climbed and had easiest access to. Now with a family and mostly sport climbing vacations, the opposite is true. Most of them had good protection and didn't take any great pro-placing skill. Sure it is a bit different, but not more difficult. There is more variability within the classifications, then between. If you are comparing skills, then there is no point in responding to this thread because the OP asked what feat in another sport might it compare to. I'm always amazed at the people that say they climb 5.x sport and 5.x-2 or -3 trad. That surely boils down to experience, but not that trad is inherently more difficult.

Trad climbers might want you to believe trad is more difficult...

From my time climbing with them, I would say their mental game and approach to climbing is far more outlier than their physical gifts.

The mental game is a much bigger deal than most people realize. 

Physical fitness for climbing 5.12a isn't that over the top for many people. Overall stress load affects performance in any sport and especially those with a high mental component like climbing.

I'm 49 and the mental game is harder than ever. Earlier this week, I was telling my wife I was losing my mental edge for climbing. She reminded me that my mental edge for everything else is stronger than ever. Balancing work/professional life/parenting/volunteer life will always be part of the fun. 

Can I climb 5.12 trad? Not right now. 

Am I relatively close. Absolutely. 

Do I have days where 5.10 stresses me out? Absolutely, but I have days where 5.12 sport is chill and 5.12a trad is super close. 

Making the magic happen requires a fun spectrum of physical and mental demands.

Hope for Movementwrote:

Um.. no. Maybe if you are a sport climber and trad has unknown components, but not if you climb both, or mostly trad. Grades are subjective, sure, but a 12a sport and a 12a trad are both 12a and pretty much the same in difficulty. Until the last few years, I had sent many more trad 12s than sport 12s, because that is mainly what I was interested in and climbed and had easiest access to. Now with a family and mostly sport climbing vacations, the opposite is true. Most of them had good protection and didn't take any great pro-placing skill. Sure it is a bit different, but not more difficult. There is more variability within the classifications, then between. If you are comparing skills, then there is no point in responding to this thread because the OP asked what feat in another sport might it compare to. I'm always amazed at the people that say they climb 5.x sport and 5.x-2 or -3 trad. That surely boils down to experience, but not that trad is inherently more difficult.

Trad climbers might want you to believe trad is more difficult...

I think it boils down to three factors:

- Placing gear takes more time and physical exertion than clipping a bolt

- It takes experience to be able to place gear efficiently and evaluate a placement with confidence 

- It takes experience to become comfortable falling on gear and therefore push yourself to climb harder routes

Hope for Movementwrote:

Trad climbers might want you to believe trad is more difficult...

Hmmm. Seems to me a whole lot of sport climbers feel that way. How often do we see: "Sport: Lead .12a. Trad: Lead 5.10." Many times the discrepancy is larger.

Of course a lot of that has to do with the learning curve for traditional climbing. Let's say we have a sport route and a trad route with about equally difficult moves and pump factor. Let's say the grades are .12a. Only a very seasoned trad climber will do the trad route with the same poise as the sport climb. 

Well said Jeff.  I think that the 3rd point is the biggest factor.  The vast majority of climbers are less comfortable whipping on gear than bolts.  We therefore have more trouble climbing relaxed and going for it as hard on gear.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsionwrote:

Anyone relatively fit can climb 5.12a if they try hard enough. I think the 7 minute claim is more accurate.

Sub 5 is where very few people go but most dedicated people who start young can do it, so 12+ or 13a. 

14a and the 4 minute mile have a lot in common. The psychology and history behind both are pretty similar. Maybe 14b.

My first 12 was trad and an on-site, so what do I know.

HAFE?  Do you know Peter Hackett?

Kristian Solemwrote:

Hmmm. Seems to me a whole lot of sport climbers feel that way. How often do we see: "Sport: Lead .12a. Trad: Lead 5.10." Many times the discrepancy is larger.

Of course a lot of that has to do with the learning curve for traditional climbing. Let's say we have a sport route and a trad route with about equally difficult moves and pump factor. Let's say the grades are .12a. Only a very seasoned trad climber will do the trad route with the same poise as the sport climb. 

This I fully agree with. If one was to top rope both, they’d most likely be the same (unless the trad route some old timey horror show). That does not change the fact that you have to fiddle with fiddley bits even on the most straight forward trad route, while also climbing 5.12. 

Jeff Macwrote:

I think it boils down to three factors:

- Placing gear takes more time and physical exertion than clipping a bolt

- It takes experience to be able to place gear efficiently and evaluate a placement with confidence 

- It takes experience to become comfortable falling on gear and therefore push yourself to climb harder routes

These points are mostly moot when approaching the 5.12 grade. IMO, I have the notion that some or the exertion factor is built into the grade. TRing a 5.12a sport climb feels about 5.12a, and leading it is usually only a little more strenuous. TRing a 12a trad climb, without having to place gear, is quite a bit less strenuous, physically. Of course, this is very dependent on the specific climbing type.

Sure, some of these things take a bit more time and experience, but if you are equating this to running an X minute mile, etc, that is a non-factor. Because it takes more time and experience, doesn't make it harder at that specific point in time. It just might take more time and broader experiences to get there.

Folks typically have a narrow view of trad climbing and what it means, not what is really originally referred to and what it still should mean. Often, with newer climbers especially, it is thought of as the type of gear that a climb requires for pro, and not the definition of the style of the 1st (and subsequent) ascents. Climb in the Needles of SD, the older Frankenjura routes, (among many other places), and you are trad climbing, yet often clipping bolts and pins (well-spaced) and maybe looking for gear placements. Of go back and pound and clip pins. Mentally a different game, but is the climbing really more difficult? Maybe if you are comparing to a X minute mile, and if you don't make it to the finish line in time, you get body-slammed... If you stick to G/PG routes, you need diffent experiences to get to 12a, but it isn't harder to climb.

I know quite some climbers and runners. It seems harder to climb 5.12a trad than to BQ. So I’d say a 2:45 marathon?

Hope for Movementwrote:

These points are mostly moot when approaching the 5.12 grade.

Maybe, and with experience his points certainly become less of a factor, but one thing you can't get rid of is the weight of a rack.  Anyone who thinks they climb just as hard with +5 lbs on their waist has never tried.  I think your perspective might be different with some actual trad climbs in your ticklist instead of just desert cracks where the rack is usually a precise given and a continuous TR possible if not the norm.  Trad is ground-up on-sight adventure climbing with only your best estimate of what gear is needed.  It's definitely not posing for Instaspray with 2 pcs left on your rack on a climb you have wired after dozens of practice laps.  Desert cracks are only a small step up, IMO.

Bill Schickwrote:

Maybe, and with experience his points certainly become less of a factor, but one thing you can't get rid of is the weight of a rack.  Anyone who thinks they climb just as hard with +5 lbs on their waist has never tried.  I think your perspective might be different with some actual trad climbs in your ticklist instead of just desert cracks where the rack is usually a precise given and a continuous TR possible if not the norm.  Trad is ground-up on-sight adventure climbing with only your best estimate of what gear is needed.  It's definitely not posing for Instaspray with 2 pcs left on your rack on a climb you have wired after dozens of practice laps.  Desert cracks are only a small step up, IMO.

If I go by your ticklist you haven’t ever even climbed...

Molly Zwrote:

I know quite some climbers and runners. It seems harder to climb 5.12a trad than to BQ. So I’d say a 2:45 marathon?

As a person who tried really hard to run fast in my early 20s, I disagree. 1:24 half and 3:30 full and I was working my butt off.

Once I started focusing on climbing, I progressed through those early milestones quite quickly just by being psyched. I can't say I didn't work hard but it took a lot less and I was certainly more successful than with running.

Molly Zwrote:

I know quite some climbers and runners. It seems harder to climb 5.12a trad than to BQ. So I’d say a 2:45 marathon?

Absolutely not. More like a 3:20 marathon.