TR Anchor Advice Needed

There's a crag that I go to that has no natural anchors at the summit. No trees, no boulders, etc. At the summit, someone pounded some fence posts (t-stakes) into the ground about 5 years ago to use as TR anchors. Those stakes are starting to corrode and I'm hesitant to use them. I'd like to do something similar to this photo, where you can load bolt hangers horizontally at the top of the cliff. This photo is of the anchors at Shovel Point in Minnesota. How would I get something like this done? Will I need to pour concrete into the ground? How do I get massive bolt hangers like these? Should I use glue-in bolts instead? Keep in mind that this crag has pretty loose rock and I can't use passive protection. Either way, I just need good options for establishing better TR anchors at this crag. 

First question: Do you have land owner/manager permission and buy in?  Everything else is easy. 

I would contact your local climbing organization. They likely know the situation (rock type, land owner/manager relations, bolt policy) better than us random internet people. 

That is an absurdly large hanger

t.farrellwrote: That is an absurdly large hanger

Heard of Paul Bunyan ?

Mark Pilatewrote: First question: Do you have land owner/manager permission and buy in?  Everything else is easy. 

The land that the crag is on is managed by the Forest Service (i.e. public land). I'm currently in the process of getting a proposal drawn up to the Forest Service for their approval. The Forest Service is aware of my request and they're looking into it.

Adam Flemingwrote: I would contact your local climbing organization. They likely know the situation (rock type, land owner/manager relations, bolt policy) better than us random internet people. 

Sadly, my local climbing organization is somewhat inactive at this point.

t.farrellwrote: That is an absurdly large hanger

I can't even tell how big the bolt is... 1.5"? lol

t.farrellwrote: That is an absurdly large hanger

Or really tiny cord/biners.

Really good  bolting info  on how not to high line  on you tube. They have a bolting  bible.   Great info there  

My first question is if you can bolt the rock itself near the top (i am guessing no, but I'll ask)?  OK, you don't get to top out, but you also are not running an anchor over the edge.

If you are going to get anchors back away from the edge in poor material, you are going to have to engineer some sort of anchor. That could be as simple as a deep rod or as complex as a large concrete footing with rebar. I would reach out to your local community to find out if there are any geotechnical engineerings/firms out there who can analyze the rock type and calculate what is needed. It is going to be very dependent on the local conditions, not only for soil and rock type, but also for rainwater infiltration, potential erosion and freeze/thaw expansion.

Or you could just wing it and hope neither you nor anyone else gets hurt.

Matt Himmelsteinwrote:

My first question is if you can bolt the rock itself near the top (i am guessing no, but I'll ask)? 

I wouldn't trust the rock to bolt it. I'm hoping to install the anchors via concrete in the the soil that's a few yards back from the edge. I'm still waiting to hear back from the Forest Service on whether or not pouring concrete in the ground is okay or not. I have contacted a metal fabrication shop and asked for a quote on some fabricated anchors they could make. They didn't want to deal with the liability that goes along with climbing, so I was told no. 

I could wing it and just put in some fresh fence posts at the summit however, I want to put up something that's a little more permanent. Either way, thanks for the advice! 

 I'm currently in the process of getting a proposal drawn up to the Forest Service for their approval. The Forest Service is aware of my request and they're looking into it.

Interesting approach. I've never known anyone to try this. Please post up the results of this effort? I am really curious. Oft in life when we are faced with the prospect of "no" the old adage "it's better to ask forgiveness than it is permission" is the rule of thumb. 

Taylor Iuliucci wrote:

The answer to this depends heavily on the areas you have access to. If you’re at a sport area then you gotta learn to lead cause you’re not going to have many TR friendly routes. If you’re at an area with easy access to the top then it boils down to trees vs gear. If it’s trees get yourself a long static line and learn to equalize a couple of trees. Extend off the edge and you’re good to go. If it’s gear similar concept but you need to know how to place gear. Either way, you’re best off jumping on a course or finding a grizzled mentor. 

This crag has rock that is too soft to establish sport routes. There is easy access to the top. There are no trees at the summit. I have plenty of tubular webbing and cordelette. The rock is too soft to place trad gear. I have already taken a TR anchor building course with a mentor.

Hand chisel (or power drill if you have access) a 12-24” x 5/8” hole (or longer...). Should be easy in such soft rock. Epoxy in a 13-25” (depth + 1”) x1/2” Stainless threaded rod.  Come back after epoxy cure and Attach stainless 1/2” hanger, washer,  and nut. Locktite. You can just hammer on a big ass SDS bit with some tape for ergonomic handle for a hand drill in a pinch. 

Without wanting to sound too much like Crocodile Dundee ("That's not a knife, THIS is a knife") check out what we have at our local crag here!

t.farrellwrote: That is an absurdly large hanger

No, its just mini carabiners and rope.

Carl Schneiderwrote:

Without wanting to sound too much like Crocodile Dundee ("That's not a knife, THIS is a knife") check out what we have at our local crag here!

That’s the biggest spinner I have ever seen!

Maybe tan spray paint would’ve been better? (And some Loc-Tite?)

Seems if you’re going to all the effort, might as well do it right....but how deep is that bolt/bar sunk?   Looks like it’s just on a small, loose paver stone.

3/10 - for the tiny carabiners

Carl Schneiderwrote:

Without wanting to sound too much like Crocodile Dundee ("That's not a knife, THIS is a knife") check out what we have at our local crag here!

Where does one get something like that? Hardware store? Or did you have a metal fabrication shop make it for you?