Friendly Reminder

I was climbing at the Wall of the 90's yesterday when I noticed something sketch happening over my shoulder.  A couple hundred feet away on the Mission Wall there were two parties climbing multi-pitch routes; Gneiss Roof and something several routes to the climber's right, maybe Wild Child.  

Anyway, as the Gneiss Roof party was about 2/3 of the way through the last pitch, the Wild Child party yelled "OFF BELAY" without also calling a name (not that it would have mattered with the road and river noise). I then preceded to watch the red backpack wearing second of the Gneiss Roof party take her partner off belay without second thought.  She even seemed confused as to why he wasn't pulling up the rope with any speed.  I yelled over but couldn't get their attention.  The leader pulled the final roof and I couldn't help but feel a bit relieved.  

If you're not 100%, probably keep your partner on even if it means handing out 100' of slack.

Yikes

Aw jeez. That’s my nightmare. 

Glad this wasn’t an accident report! 

Funny enough, I had a scary situation very recently on Wild Child in which my belayer and I couldn't hear each other.  Everything was fine, but this was my first time on rock since I responded to a horrible climbing accident, so I was extra nervous.  I ended up screaming until I tasted a significant amount of blood in my throat.  I don't plan on multi-pitching without radios anymore.  I imagine radios would have helped in this scenario as well.

If I'm not 100% I belay out the entire rope until it's a foot off my harness worst case then is either simuling on a whole rope or you've belayed the rope while they pulled up and lost a tiny bit of time.

Edit to add: radios can be nice but I have encountered a sit where I couldn't find a clear channel out of 32 so it's good to have a plan for not being able to communicate still. Rope tugs can work but can be interpreted poorly. 

You can safely climb multipitch with a deaf-mute, learning how to do this is the answer, not radios. And it's not done with tugs. 

Russ Bwrote:

You can safely climb multipitch with a deaf-mute, learning how to do this is the answer, not radios. And it's not done with tugs. 

True.  Radios are a nice added touch though.

That would have been very wild to watch that unfold.  Good on you for yelling ...

Russ Bwrote:

You can safely climb multipitch with a deaf-mute, learning how to do this is the answer, not radios. And it's not done with tugs. 

Enlighten us, please (not challenging... I’m honestly curious).

When I climb multipitch with a partner I know well, I never feel the need to use rope tugs. We just know what the other person is doing when. With someone I know less well or with a newer climber, tugs sometimes seem helpful when comms are impaired/impossible.

I won't rope up with anyone who wants to use rope tugs, the only time I've been taken off belay while climbing was due to misinterpreted pulls of the rope. I also won't rope up with anyone who wants to use radios as it shows they lack the skills and tools to be involved in that aspect of the sport.

To climb without talking, while covering all bases at the same time requires a rather simple protocol to be established with your partners. 

1. Climber will fix rope to one solid piece before constructing the anchor, and belayer must be ready to climb as soon as the rope comes taught. This is to cover the rope team if simul-climbing was forced. 

2. To signal coming off belay, the climber literally fights the belayer for slack for several seconds, at a very fast rate, and then drops the slack. Even if there is too much drag for the belayer to see the slack being dropped, is very easy to understand. 

3. Climber does not pull the rope up until they are ready to immediately put the second on belay. After rigging the device, the leader pulls very taught on the climber. It is easy for the second to know they are on belay while the leader is tugging on the anchor while they take it down.  

DWF 3wrote:

If you're not 100%, probably keep your partner on even if it means handing out 100' of slack.

Yep. My first multi-pitch, the leader of the party of two just below my party was struggling with rope drag about 120 feet out on P3.

Leader yelling to belayer who is out of his sight: The rope drag is terrible. Can you do anything about it. Maybe unclip the first draw?

Belayer yelling back: Belay is off!

Leader: NOoooo ....

Thanks for the PSA

A few years back I was taken off belay by my partner for similar reasons while i was climbing through the crux of a multi-pitch slab climb. The route wandered quite a bit and we could not see each other; However i heard the “Juan, You’re Off Belay” quite clearly. A scary experience i will not forget.

R K wrote:

Lol what?

I guess we’re never climbing together. I’ve accepted this. 

Rope tugs? I’ve also accepted rope tugs as a means of communicating - but only to communicate one thing which is “Belay is on.“ Even then, rope tugs are sometimes not appropriate to communicate even that. 

Russ Bwrote:

I won't rope up with anyone who wants to use rope tugs, the only time I've been taken off belay while climbing was due to misinterpreted pulls of the rope. I also won't rope up with anyone who wants to use radios as it shows they lack the skills and tools to be involved in that aspect of the sport.

To climb without talking, while covering all bases at the same time requires a rather simple protocol to be established with your partners. 

1. Climber will fix rope to one solid piece before constructing the anchor, and belayer must be ready to climb as soon as the rope comes taught. This is to cover the rope team if simul-climbing was forced. 

2. To signal coming off belay, the climber literally fights the belayer for slack for several seconds, at a very fast rate, and then drops the slack. Even if there is too much drag for the belayer to see the slack being dropped, is very easy to understand. 

3. Climber does not pull the rope up until they are ready to immediately put the second on belay. After rigging the device, the leader pulls very taught on the climber. It is easy for the second to know they are on belay while the leader is tugging on the anchor while they take it down.  

TL;DR - pull harder than a gentle tug. 

Edit: The difference between the method described here and a 'tug' is one of degrees. Ya, a slight tug won't get your follower's attention / could be interpreted as a big clip with multiple attempts. I use 3 big tugs (grab 4-5+feet of rope, pulling steadily for 3+ seconds, repeated 3x times) to signify action. It also requires knowledge of the route (if possible of course) to know when to expect your leader to tie into an anchor. I am assuming maximal difficulty (like Mission Wall) of no-sight, no voice communication. 

R K wrote:

Lol what?

I guess we’re never climbing together. I’ve accepted this. 

Funny, my 5 most frequently climbed with partners and I have a combined 100+ years of experience, and we all understand and use this just fine. It's an established norm with everyone I rope up with across the nation. Maybe I'm doing a poor job of explaining it, but I've taught it to probably 30 people who picked it up just fine in person with a similar explanation

Perhaps you could tell me what I'm explaining poorly, or point out any flaws with the system, and I'll use my final allowed post in the thread to try to clear it up?

Russ Bwrote:

I won't rope up with anyone who wants to use rope tugs, the only time I've been taken off belay while climbing was due to misinterpreted pulls of the rope. I also won't rope up with anyone who wants to use radios as it shows they lack the skills and tools to be involved in that aspect of the sport.

To climb without talking, while covering all bases at the same time requires a rather simple protocol to be established with your partners. 

1. Climber will fix rope to one solid piece before constructing the anchor, and belayer must be ready to climb as soon as the rope comes taught. This is to cover the rope team if simul-climbing was forced. 

2. To signal coming off belay, the climber literally fights the belayer for slack for several seconds, at a very fast rate, and then drops the slack. Even if there is too much drag for the belayer to see the slack being dropped, is very easy to understand. 

3. Climber does not pull the rope up until they are ready to immediately put the second on belay. After rigging the device, the leader pulls very taught on the climber. It is easy for the second to know they are on belay while the leader is tugging on the anchor while they take it down.  

An easier way is for the leader to put the rope on belay before pulling up the slack.  This way the follower knows when he runs out of rope it is time to start climbing and is at worst simulclimbing.  

We call this windy day rules but use the technique whenever communication is difficult.

Russ Bwrote:

2. To signal coming off belay, the climber literally fights the belayer for slack for several seconds, at a very fast rate, and then drops the slack. Even if there is too much drag for the belayer to see the slack being dropped, is very easy to understand. 

Is there really no scenario that would feel the same to the belayer ?  E.g. climber takes a small fall, struggles to get back on the wall for a few seconds, then resumes climbing.

Serge Swrote:

Is there really no scenario that would feel the same to the belayer ?  E.g. climber takes a small fall, struggles to get back on the wall for a few seconds, then resumes climbing.

i think there's lots of unique cues of a fall versus the leader pulling rope.

1. the rate of rope feed (short strong tug, short strong tug) rather than rapidly accelerating rope

2. you end up holding a tight rope once the fall was arrested

3. the rope would probably significantly backfeed while the climber climbed back up

chris bwrote:

i think there's lots of unique cues of a fall versus the leader pulling rope.

1. the rate of rope feed (short strong tug, short strong tug) rather than rapidly accelerating rope

2. you end up holding a tight rope once the fall was arrested

I don't know.  I once caught a lead fall with so much rope drag that I thought the leader was trying to clip.

I use a system of 3 big tugs (grab 4-5+feet of rope, pulling steadily for 3+ seconds, repeated 3x times) get the other person's attention. I also feel best if I have some knowledge of the route / can evaluate how much rope a leader has used (if possible of course) to know when to expect them to tie into an anchor