New and Experienced Climbers Over 50 #12

rgold wrote: I use 60m doubles and never found them too short anywhere in the country I've climbed.  I did some climbing at Tahquitz in the 1970's with what was probably a 150' single rope. Don't remember names but did most of the 5.9's and 5.10's at the time.  Are you passing up belay stances along the way with your 70m rope?

I tend to build anchors with the rope a lot. So some of the "extra" goes there. But, yeah, on a lot of Tahquitz climbs there are multiple belay options and you pass plenty by.

I'm going to devote myself to learning proper double rope techniques soon. I think the IDEA of it. 

Lori Milas wrote:
I spent the day climbing in the Sierra with Chris.  First, I don’t know what the HELL has happened to my body and emotional state.  I’m really trying to get the joy back... it comes then goes.  At 7000 feet I was really lagging physically. But mostly I was thinking “Do I even like this?”  And so I remembered rgolds words about enjoying this journey and enjoying the climb.  

Haha, I don't know anyone that enjoys everything all the time.  Sometimes it all sucks.  What makes you a climber is that once you get down and think about it, instead of putting all your gear on ebay, you start plotting how to make the experience better next time.  But there will always be ups and downs.

How is everyone else doing currently with fitness and stoke? Is everyone fully recovered from quarantines and back up to speed? 

We're pretty much quarantined the way we have been.  I've been getting out on little-used trails a lot but not much climbing. Some training at home but far from full bore. Climbing gym just opened but is out for now for me.  I never wanted to be around crowds at the crag and now there are more reasons to avoid them.  My partners are somewhat restricted, since it is safer to stick with others who are (1) local and (2) I know are unlikely to be places where they might become carriers.  So I don't anticipate being "back up to speed" for quite a while...

I did ask Chris to explain the self-rescue with a prussik. The lengthy process involving a stuck toprope, using a prussik tied as a klemheist with a nylon sling to use for stepping up and a grigri looked very involved and not how I pictured it.  Next time maybe we can tackle it at the beginning of a day, not the end.  He had energy to burn.    Not me.

Yes, the Grigri + sling is the standard approach and you should definitely learn it.  If the rock is holdless and/or overhanging it is the only way.  You should also learn how to make do with just slings in case you aren't carrying the Grigri.  In the top-rope situation not having any gear isn't a game-stopper if you can get a hold of the rope going from anchor to belayer.  Tie that back to your harness to that you can just hang there.  Your belayer goes off belay, gathers up whatever gear you need, and you pull it up.  Toss the slack back to the belayer so they can either go back on belay (in case the rope slips and starts running again) and now you have all the gear you need.

Now think about this: you were on a climb you anticipated being able to do with hands and feet.  So the question is, can you do it with hands and feet and the rope to hold on to and slide the prusik up with each move?  If you are on a slab the answer is probably yes.  You should periodically tie the rope below back to you so that if the prusik slips you won't fall too far, but you probably don't need the foot loop and can move far faster by climbing and sliding up the prussik.

A partner did this in the midst of a horrendous storm to free a stuck rappel.  If he had done the official prusik method we'd all have been hypothermic by the time he got up, and with the frequency of nearby lightning strikes might also have been electrocuted or hit by falling rocks.  His speed achieved by not doing the standard routine is what kept us all alive.

rgold wrote:
Now think about this: you were on a climb you anticipated being able to do with hands and feet.  So the question is, can you do it with hands and feet and the rope to hold on to and slide the prusik up with each move?  If you are on a slab the answer is probably yes.  You should periodically tie the rope below back to you so that if the prusik slips you won't fall too far, but you probably don't need the foot loop and can move far faster by climbing and sliding up the prussik.

Also, on this note. If you were carrying a Grigri, Lori, and could get it on the rope above you (which requires a little slack) and attach it to your own belay loop you could just self-belay up until you could free the stuck rope. That presumes that you are on slab or have a couple good holds you can stand or pull up on (which is likely at the grades you are testing). Important, though, that your belay CONTINUE HOLDING THE OTHER END while you ascend and work on freeing the stuck rope.  Stuck ropes have a tendency to come free at the worst times.

ErikaNW wrote:

We climb on doubles almost exclusively for trad climbing - they are great for reducing rope drag on wandering routes. It's also really nice to have 2 ropes to descend sometimes.

ErikaNW...... I retract my perma noob statement. You’re bonafide expert. Climbing on doubles is the only way to go, in the mountains and on certain Josh, RR and Needles etc....  It’s so Versatile and safe.
 Please forgive my transgression.

rgold wrote:
A word on belay technique.  The belayer will have to typically pay out just one strand for clipping.  If the clip was overhead, that strand will have to be taken in for a short time while the other non-clipped strand is paid out.

When I was taught double rope belaying my experienced climber told me not to worry about the ropes being even and tight.  Play out the rope that was moving.  Don't fuss about pulling in extra rope on the other side, only the last rope clipped is important.  In my opinion this is more difficult (as a belayer) than a single rope.  It takes more awareness, it takes more engagement then single rope. Mo betta for sure, just a bit harder....

Bob Gaines wrote:
We don't address panic attacks, but we do delve deeply into the psychology of trad leading, or as John puts it, the protection problem:
"This is the challenge igniting the core of all trad climbing, where the moment of truth awaits us all whenever we push our limits. The key is knowing that grace under pressure is a skill that can and should be slowly developed."

Panic attacks are whole different thing than panic.  "Grace under pressure.." is what I am talking about.  Panic attacks occur when someone is under stress for a lengthy period of time, then a trigger will cause a "panic attack" that is usually not related to the current conditions.  Just semantics, but not conveying the idea completely, wish I were more articulate....

But thank you for addressing the problem, while the words you use to describe it are different than the words I use you have the idea that I am concerned with. Props to you guys for doing this.

We swung by Q'emlin park near Coeur D'Alene for a climb.  Totally screwed up the route finding, 3pm ended up on the ledge, got one climb before we both melted in the sun.  Lori will laugh at this, but it got all the way up to 78f and we were dying....

So today was a bike ride but we took the time to check out  Minnehaha  in Spokane.  Glad we scouted before we came to climb.  Pretty straight forward but had a couple of unusual things.  First is the great american death V.  Most of the anchors we spied here are well separated.  The folks that say just bring to quickdraws to make an anchor are going to be really freaked out.  Most anchor bolts here are really spread out, here is a picture of one, note how far apart they are and you can't even see the ledge edge in the photo they are set that far back.

This is going to require a trip to the store to pick up a whole bunch of cordelette to extend the anchors with. Then a refresher from my anchors book, haven't seen on like this for a while.

Apparently the folks that maintain this area are enamored with glued pins.  I am usually ok with this, but these guys seem a little thin to me.  I can't decide if they are 1/4 or 3/8, but they look thin to me.  Solid, and we are just TR, so will use them.  I put a standard padlock key next to it so you could judge the size/diameter.  


Climb good, climb bad, don't climb.  It's always a good time to explore new areas. Here is Barb headed up a dead end ramp, just having fun fooling around exploring. 

Andrew Rice wrote:

What length are your doubles, Rich? Last winter I picked up a pair of 50m Beal Icelines at a screaming deal. Given my primary trad destination is Tahquitz I've been leery of using 50m ropes when I typically climb there with a 70m single and often find myself doing pitches that use all of that. But I'm intrigued by the doubles and can see how they'd save you a lot of length by avoiding wander. 

Senor... at Tahquitz most of the pitches are like 130- 160 feet. (If you’re using the “correct” stances

EDIT: I wrote a bunch more but MP glitches seems to have Swallowed it....

Bottom line: Learn to use em. 

"This is going to require a trip to the store to pick up a whole bunch of cordelette to extend the anchors with."

Hey Dallas, get yourself a short length of static or low stretch rope (10mm diameter)  and use the Joshua Tree System. It works for almost every toprope setup situation you'll ever encounter.

PS. Those bolts look like Climb Tech Wave stainless steel  glue-ins (35kN) (I know, hard to believe.)

Dallas wrote:  
Lori will laugh at this, but it got all the way up to 78f and we were dying....

I am laughing.  Here in Rocklin (Sacramento) it was 106 today and the air conditioner broke in the house. It is currently 95 degrees INSIDE as we speak at 11:08 pm and Tony is too stubborn to go to a hotel. We are downstairs with each a personal fan and bucket of ice next to sleeping sofas.  I was out climbing and didn’t have sunscreen so I am cooked like a lobster and sleepless .  I wish we were in Joshua Tree where it is cool.    

But if rgold’s metric is any good things must be ok because nothing is on eBay (yet) and I am planning the next outing.

Very interesting pictures Dallas.  Following this conversation.  

What the hell is wrong with MP platform now?  It was one thing losing the emojis, another entirely that it eats whole paragraphs.  I wanted all of Guy’s dissertation.

Dallas R wrote: When I was taught double rope belaying my experienced climber told me not to worry about the ropes being even and tight.  Play out the rope that was moving.  Don't fuss about pulling in extra rope on the other side, only the last rope clipped is important.  

I don't agree, as this will leaves unnecessary slack in a rope that has been clipped overhead.  Not a big deal a lot of the time, but there are times when I want that overhead strand to be appropriately snug.  One reason is that with half ropes, you can risk placing a crappy piece overhead if you have the other strand though a nearby lower piece.  If I do that and fall, I don't want the extra load on that top piece resulting from the belayer not taking in that strand.  Its not that hard to learn to do it right...

rgold wrote:

When clipping half ropes, one strives to create parallel lines.  This often involves clipping the same rope successively, so you are most definitely "relying on a single strand of a double pair" in some cases, as the piece with the other rope might be a ways down.  This is the way half ropes are meant to be used, and I personally do not worry about the strength of a single strand. 

But Rich, in the scenario we were talking about where you have 3 climbers each climbing in turn would you ever lead on a single "half rope" in a party of three where each is following the leader in succession?

I wouldn't. 

rgold wrote:
Now think about this: you were on a climb you anticipated being able to do with hands and feet.  So the question is, can you do it with hands and feet and the rope to hold on to and slide the prusik up with each move?  If you are on a slab the answer is probably yes.  You should periodically tie the rope below back to you so that if the prusik slips you won't fall too far, but you probably don't need the foot loop and can move far faster by climbing and sliding up the prussik.

A partner did this in the midst of a horrendous storm to free a stuck rappel.  If he had done the official prusik method we'd all have been hypothermic by the time he got up, and with the frequency of nearby lightning strikes might also have been electrocuted or hit by falling rocks.  His speed achieved by not doing the standard routine is what kept us all alive.

This sounds like a keeper, rgold. Thank you.  

It's a little like coming out of Eden... suddenly eyes open to possible problems and realizing I might have to solve them myself.

I don't know if anyone remembers a question I asked thousands of posts ago about a gentleman I saw who was stuck on Double Cross.  He was quite stuck about halfway up--just hanging there for the longest time... and I sat and watched for nearly an hour as he extricated himself from the rope he was on and set up another rope to descend from.  At that time, no one had any idea what I was describing.  But that started this whole line of thought for me... a 'what if'.  

I'm going to browse for a video, but even if I cannot find one, the info you have given here should be enough to work with.  Thank you. 

This one has variations galore! I wanna try some of these out. Garda looks interesting!

https://youtu.be/WcUmdGIf21o

It occurs to me? I can probably at least ask to be shown belaying two ropes, in September, if anyone is willing. Even if only a few can make it, there will be a huge practice crag right there, and lots of expertise!

Best, Helen

On gratitude and transitions:

In Truckee there is a magnificent wall with routes from 5.6 to 11's.  We were there yesterday.  But every time I visit, it reminds me of a freeway.  Lines waiting at the base for the most popular routes... cars parked end to end--there might be 8-10 people moving along this wall at any given time.  As I climbed, I passed all kinds of people moving up and down these routes... I helped to unsnag a rope here and there for someone else and said 'hi' in passing. Granted, I haven't seen nearly all of what Truckee/Donner has to offer... and there is that incredible Black Wall that climbers love... .  but I'm guessing traffic and congestion are more the norm than the virtual isolation of Joshua Tree?  I miss that wide-open nothing.  

Talking to Chris yesterday, he would frequently say "A guide should never let that happen."  (I hope Chris is not offended if he reads this.)  Last year I wouldn't have noticed it... this year I am suddenly aware of how protected and looked-after I have been as a relatively new climber, learning this way.

I realize that it has been SUCH a gift, a thing of privilege, to be able to be 'taught'.  Some people already had all the skills and training built in or piece together from lots of online sources, books, and volumes of exposure.  Yesterday was pretty incredible, to see how much and how often I've been protected as a climber.  I surrender to the fact that this journey takes time.  I would have had no business out there figuring this out alone.  But like one of my kids... I push away the coddling little by little and venture out more alone.  

But trying to be responsible... I didn't want to be one of 'them'--the foolish person who ventures out into the desert alone, assuming he/she can handle it all and causes needless work and worry for others who have to go searching.  We constantly see posters of missing persons who vanished out of thin air as they took a hike to nowhere unprepared.  And I won't forget the days after the death of Gobright... there was a pall over Joshua Tree.  Not only because he had had a momentary lapse and died from it, but because that same week there were numerous falls right there in the park.  I have not yet heard that 'thud' that they describe, nor the screaming--I've seen helicopters but never witnessed one of the airlifts... but it seemed everyone was pretty shaken by the needless falls and injuries that week.  

I appreciate Chris saying "Why don't I show you... you can decide if you're ready to try it yet."  

This time next week I'm supposed to be at City. At the moment? I'm still not sure if my partner can make it. Or if our friend we are supposed to be meeting there will be up for much. The friend is one of our climbing partners, recovered from covid only recently. He is tired all the time. Late 40s.

This is when I sometimes wish I was confident enough to try lead soloing. I'm not, and top rope soloing would be a total no go at City. It's a PITA even here, where the cliff top is sorta accessible.

This plague means sticking with the one partner, mostly. I'm getting very little climbing in now, even with the gym open. I'll be honest, I miss climbing, but I miss humanoid contact even more. As much as I relish living alone, this is four months now of nearly complete isolation. That's teaching me a tough I thought I already had. I was wrong. This is both far easier and much harder than a few years back.

I'll probably go next week no matter what. It can always turn into just a short camping trip. At the least, City is a dark sky locale in Idaho, and there will be no moon. Stars to the horizon, and maybe that comet!

Maybe I'll throw my bike in, if my partner can't come and I'm the only one in the car. Channel Erika and try cycling at 6500'! I'll probably be a bit slower...

Best, Helen

Climbed Slick Rock (McCall, ID) yesterday with Todd, the new water resource specialist with the local NFS.  Did the "Tour de Slick Rock",  starting on the Regular Route (trad.) through the crux pitch, then traversed to the Memorial Route (sport) for it's crux.  Todd was surprised that the 5.6 old school Regular Route had a couple of pitches of off width.  Only two other climbers on the sea of granite on a day with perfect weather.

View from top of Memorial routeView down Lick Creek drainage from Slick Rock

Lori Milas wrote: On gratitude and transitions:

In Truckee there is a magnificent wall with routes from 5.6 to 11's.  We were there yesterday.  But every time I visit, it reminds me of a freeway.  Lines waiting at the base for the most popular routes... cars parked end to end--there might be 8-10 people moving along this wall at any given time.  As I climbed, I passed all kinds of people moving up and down these routes... I helped to unsnag a rope here and there for someone else and said 'hi' in passing. Granted, I haven't seen nearly all of what Truckee/Donner has to offer... and there is that incredible Black Wall that climbers love... .  but I'm guessing traffic and congestion are more the norm than the virtual isolation of Joshua Tree?  I miss that wide-open nothing.  

Talking to Chris yesterday, he would frequently say "A guide should never let that happen."  (I hope Chris is not offended if he reads this.)  Last year I wouldn't have noticed it... this year I am suddenly aware of how protected and looked-after I have been as a relatively new climber, learning this way.

I realize that it has been SUCH a gift, a thing of privilege, to be able to be 'taught'.  Some people already had all the skills and training built in or piece together from lots of online sources, books, and volumes of exposure.  Yesterday was pretty incredible, to see how much and how often I've been protected as a climber.  I surrender to the fact that this journey takes time.  I would have had no business out there figuring this out alone.  But like one of my kids... I push away the coddling little by little and venture out more alone.  

But trying to be responsible... I didn't want to be one of 'them'--the foolish person who ventures out into the desert alone, assuming he/she can handle it all and causes needless work and worry for others who have to go searching.  We constantly see posters of missing persons who vanished out of thin air as they took a hike to nowhere unprepared.  And I won't forget the days after the death of Gobright... there was a pall over Joshua Tree.  Not only because he had had a momentary lapse and died from it, but because that same week there were numerous falls right there in the park.  I have not yet heard that 'thud' that they describe, nor the screaming--I've seen helicopters but never witnessed one of the airlifts... but it seemed everyone was pretty shaken by the needless falls and injuries that week.  

I appreciate Chris saying "Why don't I show you... you can decide if you're ready to try it yet."  

Lori, my experience and yours, as noobs? Almost complete opposites. 

I'm only wildly flamingly jealous once in awhile, now, 10, 11 threads in. ;-)

Best, Helen

Some comments on recent posts:
1. I had a set of Sterling doubles, 7.8 or 7.9.  Needed one or two additional 'biners in the rappel device to have manageable friction.  One day had to rap an overhanging route, in the rain.  Good thing I had a third hand in addition to the extra friction 'biners. Scary.  Replaced them with Mammut 8.5 which work well for me.
2. Using a GriGri to ascend works well from the ground or a stance where the rope above the climber is not weighted.  If rope is weighted it can be very difficult to attach the GriGri to the rope.  For that reason I always carry two Petzl Tibloc's for use as emergency ascenders, along with two cordelettes, one for the waist tie in, the other for the foot loop.  Ascending by either of these methods takes practice, and IMHO, both are something all climbers should learn.  
3.  Sterling's Hollow Block attached to the rope with a Klemheist is way faster and gives superior friction to cordeleette with a prussic.  Ideal for third hand. Comes in two lenghts depending on whether or not you extend your rappel.
4.  These are my personal opinions, please ignore if you think they're BS, and cut the old guy some slack.

Old lady H wrote:

Lori, my experience and yours, as noobs? Almost complete opposites. 

I'm only wildly flamingly jealous once in awhile, now, 10, 11 threads in. ;-)

Best, Helen

Helen. I have followed your journey with such deep admiration and fellowship.  Some things cannot be fixed: grief, loss, tragedy, illness, death--not by any amount of money or positive affirmation.  We carry this with us, and move on.

Back in the 60's everything felt so communal.  If someone had a car, it became our car. My best friend came from wealth...she would sneak us into the country club under the radar so we could feast on prime rib and swim in that beautiful olympic sized pool.  Everyone bummed cigarettes from everyone else, passed the joint.  I never had a concept of 'mine'.  And especially now... it seems everyone shares their wealth, be it support, information, or even goods as friends.  Whatever I can offer... mostly tales of my own journey, but also a place to stay, shared guiding when/if I still have that... it's all here.  

To my very first post... it really was about how to become a climber, as an older noob.  I can still remember standing in the parking lot of Intersection Rock a few years ago and wondering... how the hell do I climb here?  Am I going to walk up to a 25 year old and ask him/her to take me along?  What gear do I need?  How would I use it?  Etc.  We all have had to go through this.  I'm still thinking about a lady I recently met who seems to have an enormous hustle, to get out on her own, find dozens of partners in various places, set up trips alone, and try to get this climbing-thing established.  Kudos to all of us who continue to try to find a way.  

Lori Milas wrote:

Helen. I have followed your journey with such deep admiration and fellowship.  Some things cannot be fixed: grief, loss, tragedy, illness, death--not by any amount of money or positive affirmation.  We carry this with us, and move on.

Back in the 60's everything felt so communal.  If someone had a car, it became our car. My best friend came from wealth...she would sneak us into the country club under the radar so we could feast on prime rib and swim in that beautiful olympic sized pool.  Everyone bummed cigarettes from everyone else, passed the joint.  I never had a concept of 'mine'.  And especially now... it seems everyone shares their wealth, be it support, information, or even goods as friends.  Whatever I can offer... mostly tales of my own journey, but also a place to stay, shared guiding when/if I still have that... it's all here.  

To my very first post... it really was about how to become a climber, as an older noob.  I can still remember standing in the parking lot of Intersection Rock a few years ago and wondering... how the hell do I climb here?  Am I going to walk up to a 25 year old and ask him/her to take me along?  What gear do I need?  How would I use it?  Etc.  We all have had to go through this.  I'm still thinking about a lady I recently met who seems to have an enormous hustle, to get out on her own, find dozens of partners in various places, set up trips alone, and try to get this climbing-thing established.  Kudos to all of us who continue to try to find a way.  

Yup. Pretty amazing, isn't it? I fully realize I am the one who is very fortunate now, too, and try not to lose sight of that.

I'm making arrangements right now to "rent" some gym staffers tomorrow! I'm going to learn to lead belay with my Lifeguard, try it with different ropes, etc. Top rope backup belay and someone willing to jump off the wall for me! Gym leads are far less friction than outside, so I expect to be off the ground plenty.

EDIT to add, Idaho Bob, I do hope to get up there and do Slick rock with you one of these days! That's one I need someone to really trust on, so I'm not in over my head. Including the creek crossing.

Best, Helen

Buck Rogers wrote:

But Rich, in the scenario we were talking about where you have 3 climbers each climbing in turn would you ever lead on a single "half rope" in a party of three where each is following the leader in succession?

I wouldn't. 

No I wouldn't use a single half rope except in an emergency (and I have done that when a rappel hung up after coming free from the anchor).  Unofficial drop-testing has shown that a single half rope will hold one or two UIAA test drops with 80 kg, so its not as if you are climbing with fishing line.  Moreover, the 55 kg drop standard for half ropes was an engineering decision for reliably testing the rope's ability to hold at least a single such fall with 80 kg. (The contorted false explanations for the 55 kg weight are legion.)  Also, it is not at all uncommon for people to use a single half rope for glacier travel, where cutting is not an issue and crevasse falls are low fall-factor.