Simul Rapping

In my introduction thread to this one someone commented that simul rapping “isn’t rocket science”. Well yeah, it ain’t rocket science but nor is any other part of climbing and people still die doing it. It’s far, far simpler than tying into your harness but people get injured doing that incorrectly too.

This may end up being  what I don’t really want it to be, a lesson, a how-to about simul rapping, but read it and simul rap at your own risk.

I’ll state this right now: Simul rapping is expert only territory. If you can’t figure out what the consequences can be, if you can’t figure out 100% of the solutions yourself, if you can’t figure out how to make it foolproof safe then YOU SHOULD NOT BE SIMUL RAPPING.
Rappelling has always been dangerous and simul rapelling in no way makes it safer. There is no NEED to simul rap. I have retreated from high on El Cap more times than I care to admit. I’ve rapped off thousands of routes and NEVER have I NEEDED to simul rap.

First of all, I’m not one of those people who worry about the one in a million chance or even the one in a thousand chance that something may happen. I can, and  have, for example, run my arm through a sling and untied simply to untangle something quickly. I don’t worry that all of a sudden I’m going to forget that I’m holding myself into the cliff merely with my arm through a sling and fall to my death. My point is that I’m real world safe but not safe to the nth degree. 

Okay, so here we go.

First of all, TIE KNOTS INTO THE ENDS OF THE ROPE!

Tie knots into each end or tie the ends together, it doesn’t make much difference. Tie a BFK (Big Fuckin Knot)! Tying a knot into the end of the rope will simply prevent you from rapping off the end of the rope. I don’t care how safe you’ve been up to this point but if you rap off the end of the rope, one or both of you are going to get hurt or killed.

Some kind of Autolocking device or autoblock is MANDATORY

The ONLY way I will Simul rap with someone is if they are using some sort of auto locking device such as a grigri, or if they are using an autoblock AND they are setting it up correctly. I’m not going to rap with some cowboy who thinks it’s “No big deal”. I‘ve been doing this long enough that I have nothing to prove to anyone in climbing and I certainly don’t have to prove to anyone that I’m badass.

Here’s where I worry about the what if... what if? kind of thing.

What happens when you’re rapping with someone who only has an ATC, no autoblock?  What happens when you are both bebopping down the cliff, having a great time, looking around, enjoying your day, and a twist in the rope, a slight tangle, or even a sudden gust of wind pulls the rope out of his hand? What about (this has happened, hasn’t it?) he sees a cam in crack and stops to bootie it and in the process looses control of the rope?
You’re gonna die.
You could use a biner block up at the anchor so that it blocks the grigri side of the rope and if he looses control then at least you won’t die. 

I’ve climbed a ton with Jordan Cannon over the last two years and have done far more simul rapping with him than anyone else. 

We have a SYSTEM for it.
We are very CONSCIENCE about it, very EXACT about it.

We are freaking RELIGIOUS about it!

We set the rope through the anchor and tie knots in each end. We physically show each other the knot we tied or we ask each other if they tied a knot. We set our grigris to the rope and at the same time, suck in some slack and before we unclip from the anchor, look at each other and ask “Are you good?”, only then do we unclip from the anchor and proceed down. 
First thing we do when we can see the ends of the rope is to notice that they reach down to the next anchor equally. If they don’t, we mention it, “Your end is short”. In that case the climber whose end reaches the anchor will go ahead down, clip in and “lower” the other climber till his end of the rope reaches the anchor. If you can’t picture this or need this to be explained further then you simply do not have the understanding of systems and forces to simul rap and shouldn’t do it.
We mention when we need to maybe unweight the rope to climb up and get a tangle. We keep each other appraise about what we are doing. 
When we are both clipped into the anchor, we look at each other and ask “You good?” only then do we take our grigris off the rope. We will untie our safety knots (each climber is responsible for the knot on his end) we will thread and pull the rope and repeat.

THERE IS NO COMPLACENCY!
No, “yeah, that’s what we always do (but for some reason didn’t this time). EVERYTIME it’s the same exact thing! 

The other critical step is to close the system by connecting the partners together. do it with a double-length sling clipped to each of your belay loops or something similar. that way, if one person loses control, the team can only get a few feet apart before everything stops and you can get back in control again
https://youtu.be/y_bHtt9iWPA?t=82

bishop triphosphatewrote: The other critical step is to close the system by connecting the partners together. do it with a double-length sling clipped to each of your belay loops or something similar. that way, if one person loses control, the team can only get a few feet apart before everything stops and you can get back in control again
https://youtu.be/y_bHtt9iWPA?t=82

Without a backup both partners are still affected by gravity, slung together or not. 

bishop triphosphatewrote: The other critical step is to close the system by connecting the partners together. do it with a double-length sling clipped to each of your belay loops or something similar. that way, if one person loses control, the team can only get a few feet apart before everything stops and you can get back in control again
https://youtu.be/y_bHtt9iWPA?t=82

I completely disagree that this technique offers any safety except in one very specific situation, AND that the vast majority of climbers do not Simul rap this way.

In fact, I challenge anyone to come up with the ONE way this technique can save a life. 

Dumb question, when are there times when Simul Rappeling is better than normal rappelling.  Assuming both climbers have a device allowing both rope strands to pass?  Enormocast discussed this topic a little and basically said it is no faster which I generally agree.

Gumby Kingwrote: Dumb question, when are there times when Simul Rappeling is better than normal rappelling.  Assuming both climbers have a device allowing both rope strands to pass?  Enormocast discussed this topic a little and basically said it is no faster which I generally agree.

Rapping off a desert tower or quickly rapping to avoid a storm, usually lightning. I was taught how to do it when we were doing raps in the dark and my partner wasn't as familiar with where the rap stations were (and I had no clue) so 2 headlamps looking for bolts were far faster than 1. Even with escaping a storm, I'd rather stack the rappels and just go quicker. By the time you've done 2-3 raps you're usually off of the most lightning prone features. 

Very well written Mark. I do it exactly as you do, and it still scares me. I also agree that tethering each other together provides NO benefit. The rope will still fly through the anchor, and both climbers will climbers will plummet.

Quick question. Do you/have you ever simul-rapped with haul bags for any reason?

When Jordan and I finished Freerider last fall we slept on top and then rapped the route the next day to clean off all our gear. We simul rapped down to the Headwall. Jordan went down on a grigri from there with me following on the other rope with my grigri. Essentially a simul setup but with Jordan already and the next anchor, clipped in but holding the rope in his grigri. We grabbed the Ledge and haul bag we had left on the extreme left side of Sous la Toit (Completely off the ledge). Since Jordan was “leading“ the raps, swinging around to get to the various ledges and I was going to be rapping with the most load, he’d rap down to the anchor below, keep the rope tight via his grigri (essentially never coming off rappel but clipped to the anchor) I’d rap off the other rope we had using my grigri and a sling clipped to his rope so that I could pull myself over to the anchor. Eventually we were rapping with quite alot of stuff and we proceeded down there route that way. That was the day we passed 20 people below the Ear to the ground. It took us maybe 4 hours to rap the whole route.

Get it?
The set up was essentially simul rapping, but since I had a big load and didn’t want to trust my tired hands on an ATC I wanted to use a grigri so I could let go, stop, rest, deal with the bags and easily continue.

Mark Hudonwrote:

I completely disagree that this technique offers any safety except in one very specific situation, AND that the vast majority of climbers do not Simul rap this way.

In fact, I challenge anyone to come up with the ONE way this technique can save a life. 

After reflection, you're absolutely right Mark. The only actual use I can think of now is if one partner reaches a ledge first and unweights the rope, the rope won't slide too far through the rings and drop their partner too far since the sling limits their distance. It's not life-saving but I guess it could potentially be ankle-saving given some very specific circumstances with a perfectly sized ledge... unlikely.

Mark, ran into Tommy H at the bridge a couple days ago, reminisced about the nice ride to Marlette w my pops, thanks again for that, dad still rates that as the best ride of his life. :)

Question: so far I’ve only met one other person (M Schaefer) who clips the tail to the corresponding gear loop (if I’m on R strand, my overhand on a bight goes on my R gear loop). I do this for the added efficiency of not having to pull up rope but also serves to halve the amount of dangling rope, significantly mitigates the “stuck rope” risk, and ensures the knot *is* there, as I can see it right next to me. I’m pretty sure I have yet to experience any significant twisting issues and, when it does present, takes 1-2s to toss the knot down the wall. 

Any particular reason you drop your tail instead of clipping it to self? Thanks for starting the discussion. 

Christian, no, thats sort of condition based thing. If it’s nuking wind, if you’re rapping down a bunch of rubble, people below you. It doesn’t need to be a rule.

I‘ve sent the author of that vid a note that I’d like to talk to him about his sling connecting the climbers idea. 

Gumby Kingwrote: Dumb question, when are there times when Simul Rappeling is better than normal rappelling.

When conditions are rapidly changing and it's time to move...lightening, sun kissing the frozen stuff above (ice, cornice, serac, snowfield), lower-angle terrain or in high winds where each person can manage a single cord...or combination. As a broader comment, knowing how/when to move faster and having those skills at your disposal is conducive to longevity.

One thing my climbing mentor taught me was to go slow when rappelling. Mistakes happen when you have the handle on the gri gri cranked open and you’re flying down the rope. 

Some views that may or may not be useful.
 
Reasons to simul rap.

• 1 You are using grigris and don’t like the idea of using a blocking knot because you are on terrain that is complex and hence pulling the rope will be difficult.
• 2 Descending with a beginner or nervous second, but wanting to give them the learning experience of controlling the rope but with the comfort of someone near them (triple check their third hand is grippy, and best if a third person can offer a base belay). 
• 3 Rapping off a tower, fin etc.
• 4 Learning something new.
• 5 Speed.

 
1. Makes a lot of sense. It is likely to be for only a couple of raps, until the descent is overhanging, and you can bring an ATC next time. Mark had an interesting example of using a simul to solve a problem, or just make things easier. Speed is unlikely to be the main driver and all safety systems and buddy checking can take place. Particularly knots in the end of the rope and third hands if using plates.
 
2. Instructors only. Otherwise use a tandem rap or lower.
 
3. Rare for many; never for most. But it does need to be done at times. Also works with trees if you have run out of tat, or local rules mean you can’t leave anything.
 
4. In case 3 might occur. Learn somewhere safe.
 
5. Hum… I’m sure on this. I haven’t timed it, but I have timed other things. Particularly the increase in speed from the leader putting her third hand on first, pulling up a big loop of rope and everyone putting their plates on at the same time. Second puts his third hand on whilst leader descends. Or, just relies on a base belay. If you ever watch this done by a group of people sharing ropes, maybe 2 teams of 3, it is like watching people jump out of a plane. Go, go, go. I’m guessing this is because the checking is done by the second as the leader descends.
 
On a normal rap I wiz down, on a simul I think I go more slowly. My normal descent time is likely to be 30 seconds. If this could be removed by simul rapping, the team would save 300s on a 10 rap descent. Not much. Given the need to triple check and probably less whiz to the descent, this might more realistically be 2.5 min. Not worth it IMHO. (I have actually overtaken a team simul rapping.)
 
On why to link the two climbers with a 120. This just ensures buddy checking is constantly occurring and communication is constant and easy. No one stops to remove a stuck cam half way down, the other gets to the stance and unweights/removes third hand because they are on autopilot, type of fatal thing. But it will slow things down. But as I just said, I’m not convinced the speed thing is a good reason to simul rap.
 
Never simul without knots in the ends or the ends tied to you.

Dave, I agree with you about the connection sling being more a constant reminder of your partner than anything else. 

David Coleywrote: Some views that may or may not be useful.
 
Reasons to simul rap.
. . .

• 5 Speed.

 . . .
5. Hum… I’m sure on this. I haven’t timed it, but I have timed other things. Particularly the increase in speed from the leader putting her third hand on first, pulling up a big loop of rope and everyone putting their plates on at the same time. Second puts his third hand on whilst leader descends. Or, just relies on a base belay. If you ever watch this done by a group of people sharing ropes, maybe 2 teams of 3, it is like watching people jump out of a plane. Go, go, go. I’m guessing this is because the checking is done by the second as the leader descends.
 
On a normal rap I wiz down, on a simul I think I go more slowly. My normal descent time is likely to be 30 seconds. If this could be removed by simul rapping, the team would save 300s on a 10 rap descent. Not much. Given the need to triple check and probably less whiz to the descent, this might more realistically be 2.5 min. Not worth it IMHO. (I have actually overtaken a team simul rapping.)
 . .  . 

Ha, if you frame the issue as something like "when I normally rap, I go down like a parachutist coming out of an airplane, but when I simul-rap, I hesitantly descend at a snail-like pace," then you're not going to get any time savings, or even be slower.

In my experience, simuling does go at almost twice as fast as regular rapping.  If you're not getting that benefit, then it doesn't make much sense.
This is probably somewhat obvious, but in my experience, when you first simul (either ever or with a new person), there is a reasonable tendency to descend slowly.  When you do it more frequently with the same person, the pace picks up to about the same speed that you would normally rappel.  
I'm not at all pushing for simuling, just think it's a somewhat interesting topic (see the relatively long thread  here )

pfwein Weinbergwrote:

Ha, if you frame the issue as something like "when I normally rap, I go down like a parachutist coming out of an airplane, but when I simul-rap, I hesitantly descend at a snail-like pace," then you're not going to get any time savings, or even be slower.

In my experience, simuling does go at almost twice as fast as regular rapping.  If you're not getting that benefit, then it doesn't make much sense.
This is probably somewhat obvious, but in my experience, when you first simul (either ever or with a new person), there is a reasonable tendency to descend slowly.  When you do it more frequently with the same person, the pace picks up to about the same speed that you would normally rappel.  
I'm not at all pushing for simuling, just think it's a somewhat interesting topic (see the relatively long thread  here )

You don't see a correlation between speed and being safe? Or better yet, let's rephrase your statement to add the unspoken

Ha, if you frame the issue as something like "when I normally rap, I go down like a parachutist coming out of an airplane because I do it all the time and I'm not going to die if my partner waiting to rap up at the belay takes his hand off the rope or something, but when I simul-rap, I'm aware of the added risks and because some of those risks are out of my control, I hesitantly descend at a snail-like pace to ensure that these additional risks don't result in an accident from moving too quickly," then you're not going to get any time savings, or even be slower.
In my experience, simuling does go at almost twice as fast as regular rapping because my partner and I were moving at the same speed that we would if we were rapping normally even though there's additional risks and additional reasons to slow down and triple check our system.  If you're not getting that benefit, then it doesn't make much sense.
This is probably somewhat obvious, but in my experience, when you first simul (either ever or with a new person), there is a reasonable tendency to descend slowly because of learning a new system and an appreciation for the additional failure modes of this advanced technique.  When you do it more frequently with the same person, the pace picks up to about the same speed that you would normally rappel as you both become more complacent with the process until you finally get the opportunity to be in the AAJ's Accidents in North American Climbing saying the phrase "I don't know what happens, we do it all the time, we just missed something because we were tired or trying to move fast or I don't know."  

Fail Fallingwrote:

You don't see a correlation between speed and being safe? Or better yet, let's rephrase your statement to add the unspoken . . . .

The operations required for simul-rapping are not substantially different from the operations in regular multi-pitch climbing (e.g., being 100% sure that you are not taking someone off belay until they are secure).  It is true that mistakes in simul-rapping could cause two deaths instead of one.  But can you explain what shortcuts you take with your climbing ropework with the knowledge that your shortcut is a good idea because it's only going to cause one death instead of two? 

Anyway, I am not the defender or proponent of simul-rapping.  For people who don't have confidence in their or their partner's skills, it is obviously not a good idea.  For people who do, I suppose it's debatable.  In my climbing experience, EPC is the only place where it's seemed to make a lot of sense, maybe Yosemite (at least parts) would be similar.  For typical stuff around the Front Range of Colorado (95% of my climbing), where you're typically doing either one rap or at most several, I don't think it makes sense, at least for me.

I won't comment on the religious argument of to do or not (I do) or the exact techniques (mostly common sense and a lot - knot the ends - applies to all rapping).  What I do want to say is that if you are truly trying to do a public service (and not just looking for some quick accolades) you won't bury this in some MP thread that will soon be lost and mostly forgotten.  Publish it some place where it can be referenced, and have it exist as a living document (Wikipedia style).  Maybe providing a persistent "How To" area is an improvement MP could provide.

Eric Engbergwrote:  Maybe providing a persistent "How To" area is an improvement MP could provide.

This. No riff-raff posting their half-assed opinions. Just clear, concise content from people like Mark.

F r i t zwrote:

This. No riff-raff posting their half-assed opinions. Just clear, concise content from people like Mark.

this sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. How do you moderate something like this? who chooses those "worthy" enough to post a how-to? see where i'm going? 

in reality, these how-to's already exist in the form of books. what we're really talking about here is people being lazy and wanting fast access to information that may or may not be vetted by appropriate people/organizations. MP shouldn't step into this world, it's outside their scope...