Anyone can climb V10/5.14-

Michael Bradywrote:

heading that way? It has been there for a bit and is likely worse than many sports.

Don't know about worse, but it would be good for someone to research the dropout rate for climbers once they leave the youth comp circuit and have to make their own way. Adult comp climbing is barely a thing anymore outside of a small elite and poorly supported in this country. So then what?

Josh Higginswrote: I tried damn hard for along time.  I peaked out around V8-V9 and 5.13b-5.13c, blowing a finger every time I got up into that range.  

I think it's worth noting - most significantly - your height and weight.  I'm thinking you're a larger guy - in comparison to the Anderson bros, Hampton, a long list of many others we could all rattle off - and even the above Mr Beal.  There comes at some point a physical reality of dynamically loading human tissue - trained to any degree - where it fails - and there's nothing you're going to be able to do to get around it - certainly not long term.  You can drop weight and work your form to load the smallest tendons less - of course, that's the game - but it still has a limit.

Michael Bradywrote:

heading that way? It has been there for a bit and is likely worse than many sports.

I’m not sure youth competitive climbing has attained the society penetration level of gymnastics, for example. I don’t think it is even close yet. But it will be.

my original comment about getting to 5.14 in 6 months as prerequisite for youth climbing team was tongue-in-cheek, obviously.

But we do tend to underestimate the rate of progress. There are plenty of people still alive/actively climbing right now who had seen 5.12 go from elite to pedestrian. Or 5.13 go from elite to attainable for regular weekend warrior. And at each point people said, well, ok, it happened with 5.12, but surely 5.13 is beyond the limit of what someone could get to, unless they are gifted full time professional. Now people are saying the same about 14/13, as was once said about 13/12. But if you think about it, 14a is now 6 grades below the pinnacle.

I have very fuzzy view of what an average climber actually is.  Which is why I prefer a more fuzzy statement that an average climber could climb a lot harder than whatever plateau they hit on their own, if they had will, dedication, time, and proper guidance. 

Lena chitawrote:

I’m not sure youth competitive climbing has attained the society penetration level of gymnastics, for example. I don’t think it is even close yet. But it will be.

my original comment about getting to 5.14 in 6 months as prerequisite for youth climbing team was tongue-in-cheek, obviously.

But we do tend to underestimate the rate of progress. There are plenty of people still alive/actively climbing right now who had seen 5.12 go from elite to pedestrian. Or 5.13 go from elite to attainable for regular weekend warrior. And at each point people said, well, ok, it happened with 5.12, but surely 5.13 is beyond the limit of what someone could get to, unless they are gifted full time professional. Now people are saying the same about 14/13, as was once said about 13/12. But if you think about it, 14a is now 6 grades below the pinnacle.

I have very fuzzy view of what an average climber actually is.  Which is why I prefer a more fuzzy statement that an average climber could climb a lot harder than whatever plateau they hit on their own, if they had will, dedication, time, and proper guidance.

Im purely speaking to the trail of wrecked bodies

Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm 99% a boulderer) but isn't it easier to boulder V10 than climb 5.14a? Was chatting about this with a few climbers who put 5.14a in my language as ranging from "V11 on a rope" to "90ft of V6". If you're aiming for the power end of that spectrum I'd guess you were bouldering V10–11 consistently and peaking at V12. I don't know about the endurance end, but I have known "weak" climbers who could climb V5 for days on end without pumping out or making mistakes. For them, bumping their static state skill to V6 would be the ticket.

Lena chitawrote:

I’m not sure youth competitive climbing has attained the society penetration level of gymnastics, for example. I don’t think it is even close yet. But it will be.

my original comment about getting to 5.14 in 6 months as prerequisite for youth climbing team was tongue-in-cheek, obviously.

But we do tend to underestimate the rate of progress. There are plenty of people still alive/actively climbing right now who had seen 5.12 go from elite to pedestrian. Or 5.13 go from elite to attainable for regular weekend warrior. And at each point people said, well, ok, it happened with 5.12, but surely 5.13 is beyond the limit of what someone could get to, unless they are gifted full time professional. Now people are saying the same about 14/13, as was once said about 13/12. But if you think about it, 14a is now 6 grades below the pinnacle.

I have very fuzzy view of what an average climber actually is.  Which is why I prefer a more fuzzy statement that an average climber could climb a lot harder than whatever plateau they hit on their own, if they had will, dedication, time, and proper guidance.

Well remember that gymnastics is mostly a female sport in the US. My daughter competed for 6 years and the number of boys was tiny. I'm pretty sure that there are far more boys doing youth climbing than gymnastics but the inverse is still probably true for girls.

Dan Schmidtwrote: Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm 99% a boulderer) but isn't it easier to boulder V10 than climb 5.14a?

IMO, it's typically easier to send a V10 than to redpoint a 5.14a, provided you are capable of both. Climbing a route of comparable (if even possible to compare) difficulty to a boulder problem just takes more effort (requires more tactics, longer learning process, building endurance, etc). And if you are not as well-rounded technically, it's much easier to hide your deficiencies on a boulder problem than on a route. So yeah, I'm pretty sure there are many who have climbed a V10 (or maybe even V11) than a 5.14a. On the other hand, there are also those who have climbed 5.14a w/o a prayer's chance on a 2 move V10.

Honda in the late 1970s did a very exhaustive study (as they always do) on youth sports and how long kids stay will stay with a sport & what are the long term goals of building racers. Honda Which is not the most ethical company in the world (it's not the worst) does not have a youth program Like Kawasaki or KTM. What they realized was that only 1% will stay in any sport long enough to justify the cost. More importantly, the damage to the kids was not worth getting the one percent. They did not want the broken kids on Honda's karma.

Dan Schmidtwrote: Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm 99% a boulderer) but isn't it easier to boulder V10 than climb 5.14a? Was chatting about this with a few climbers who put 5.14a in my language as ranging from "V11 on a rope" to "90ft of V6". If you're aiming for the power end of that spectrum I'd guess you were bouldering V10–11 consistently and peaking at V12. I don't know about the endurance end, but I have known "weak" climbers who could climb V5 for days on end without pumping out or making mistakes. For them, bumping their static state skill to V6 would be the ticket.

I am not sure where the idea that v10 is equivalent to 5.14- comes from. Perhaps it is that v10, when you add the difficulty involved in putting up the draws or placing the gear, is the physical difficulty underlying many 14a's. Thus V11 more accurately reflects the totality of the difficulty encountered on 14-.

As a result I am a fan of the conversion scale which says that v2-v4 covers 5.11- to 5.11+, v5-v7 covers 5.12- to 5.12+, v8-v10 covers 5.13- to 5.13+, (and somehow we get) v11-v14 covers 5.14- to 5.14+.

Also, it is worth pointing out that roughly 4 consecutive v6 moves accumulates to approximately v10.

Emil Briggswrote:

Well remember that gymnastics is mostly a female sport in the US. My daughter competed for 6 years and the number of boys was tiny. I'm pretty sure that there are far more boys doing youth climbing than gymnastics but the inverse is still probably true for girls.

It's on the runout podcast but there are actually more women climbing in gyms than men so it would surprise me if there was a large difference in children.  

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

It's on the runout podcast but there are actually more women climbing in gyms than men so it would surprise me if there was a large difference in children.  

Trevor to clarify I was comparing within genders. Meaning that there are far more girls doing youth gymnastics than girls doing youth climbing. But for boys there are probably a lot more doing youth climbing than gymnastics.

I thought overall the tone and the  opinions of the discussion has been productive.   If I have to summarize it'll be "Is 5.14- a 5% of population who climbs thing?   If so then it's pretty common/most ppl who train can attain it.  Or  is it a 1% of population who climbs thing? which then becomes a genetic disposition+mental disposition+training+ discipline+diet thing."

I know ppl who can get off the couch  (as in beer and TV and no training) and do a 5.12.   I have never met anyone who can get off the couch and do a 5.14-

For me personally it feels like mid 5.13/8A is an achievable goal for people who are weekend warriors who doesn't have the genetic gifts (example - Chris Sharma climbed a 5.10C the first day he went climbing in the gym at age 12....I couldn't climb a 10c clean in the gym for about a year after I started climbing at age 29).

Base on my observations it looks like mid 13s is the 5% and 14 is the 1%.   Or maybe even less than that.   If I start thinking of all the people I know who climbs regularly (<--emphasis mine) the # of people who can climb 13s outdoors is probably like 1-2%, and the I only know 3 people who can climb 14s so it's like .1% of all the climbers I know.

JNEwrote:Also, it is worth pointing out that roughly 4 consecutive v6 moves accumulates to approximately v10.

That seems way too soft. What's a consensus V10 that's like this? I can't think of one, and the ones that do come to mind are misgraded and closer to V8.

The average climber varies with context and the grades don't tell the whole story. I'd say most climbers don't seriously boulder at all, so that rules out achieving V10.

Which is funny, because it's so much more practical to work your way up in bouldering. You basically just need a woody, a fingerboard, access, and time. Obviously, it helps to have a crew (tons of pads are really helpful for making you try harder…) but they're not necessary.

Lena chitawrote:

...

I have very fuzzy view of what an average climber actually is.  Which is why I prefer a more fuzzy statement that an average climber could climb a lot harder than whatever plateau they hit on their own, if they had will, dedication, time, and proper guidance.

This sounds accurate to me. I consider myself an average climber, and I am quite fuzzy. (Especially with this quarantine beard that my wife keeps asking me to shave...)

Dan Schmidtwrote:

That seems way too soft. What's a consensus V10 that's like this? 

Perhaps it is your definition of 'v6 move' which is soft ;)

Any '4 (crux) move' v10 should contain 4 moves of roughly v6. Think 4 consecutive v6 dynos (or equivalent) with some easier filler climbing.

Dan Schmidtwrote: Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm 99% a boulderer) but isn't it easier to boulder V10 than climb 5.14a? Was chatting about this with a few climbers who put 5.14a in my language as ranging from "V11 on a rope" to "90ft of V6". If you're aiming for the power end of that spectrum I'd guess you were bouldering V10–11 consistently and peaking at V12. I don't know about the endurance end, but I have known "weak" climbers who could climb V5 for days on end without pumping out or making mistakes. For them, bumping their static state skill to V6 would be the ticket.

Anecdata here.  I probably know at least 20 people who have climbed v10 and not 14a - most not even close to 14a.  Every single climber I know who has a 14a has also sent v10.  I think true v10 is significantly more attainable than 14a.

This reminds me that the average person can be a millionaire by age 40.  You don’t need to be a highly paid professional either (doctor, lawyer, etc).  just a middle class person who gives up much of their normal life, just to have a certain number in their bank/investment accounts.  

think of how much you gotta sacrifice to save and invest your way to $1M at 40?  you willing yo do that???

same goes for climbing 5.14.  you willing to do that???  

i sure as heck ain’t.  i’m happy being the mediocre yupi climber that i am.  i’d love to be able to redpoint 11a trad someday.  maybe i will, maybe i won’t....  i just hope i’m having fun the whole time!

JNEwrote:

Perhaps it is your definition of 'v6 move' which is soft ;)

Any '4 (crux) move' v10 should contain 4 moves of roughly v6. Think 4 consecutive v6 dynos (or equivalent) with some easier filler climbing.

I hear where you are coming from but a 4 move sustained V6 is not a V10 or a V8....its a V6. If it is, I have been doing this wrong for a lot of years and need to go upgrade a shit ton of problems

JNEwrote:

Perhaps it is your definition of 'v6 move' which is soft ;)

Any '4 (crux) move' v10 should contain 4 moves of roughly v6. Think 4 consecutive v6 dynos (or equivalent) with some easier filler climbing.

What's an example?

Mike Brady wrote:
I hear where you are coming from but a 4 move sustained V6 is not a V10 or a V8....its a V6. If it is, I have been doing this wrong for a lot of years and need to go upgrade a shit ton of problems

He's saying that each individual move would be V6 by itself, but I don't agree with these formula-based grades in general. It's not obvious what formula is being used here, but clearly it's not linear — eight "V6 moves" in a row isn't V14. At a certain point easier moves are just filler. Like, if your V10 project has a V4 topout, the topout doesn't really add to the grade. It might be a heartbreaker, but at V10 you're pretty much expected to onsight V4 all day long.

Mingwrote: 
Base on my observations it looks like mid 13s is the 5% and 14 is the 1%.   Or maybe even less than that.   If I start thinking of all the people I know who climbs regularly (<--emphasis mine) the # of people who can climb 13s outdoors is probably like 1-2%, and the I only know 3 people who can climb 14s so it's like .1% of all the climbers I know.

Wait, you know 3,000 climbers?