Anyone can climb V10/5.14-

Totally agree with JNE that having strong/stronger partners is a huge boon to anyone trying to climb harder. I liken it to me and my friends trying to learn to skateboard on our own in a small town in the Midwest in the late 80's/early90's. Save a few Bones Brigade videos, we had no direct role models and no Youtube tutorials. Our rate of progress was glacial.

Another major factor that hasn't really been stressed is proximity to a high density of routes of incremental difficulty. I climbed my first 5.13 back in 2012, not because I was a "13-climber", but because it was simply the next grade up at my local crag (Pilot). I actually skipped 12b and 12d because, according to the old guidebook, Pilot just didn't have those grades.  I subsequently didn't climb another 5.13 for six more years, solely because there wasn't another convenient 13 to work in a two hour radius from Raleigh (Sauratown was still closed, and the Hanging Garden was deemed too scary). Had Pilot held a few 13b's, c's, and d's, I'm sure I would have set my sights on them. I also reckon there would be way more strong sport climbers in the Piedmont in general.

But neither partners nor proximity have anything to do with genetics.  Again, we're back to the motivation factor: those with an average psych will often content themselves with being the strongest person in their group (I did), whereas those with the highest psych will go to great lengths to climb with and learn from stronger climbers. Those with an average psych will make long trips to destination crags a few times a year (I do), whereas those with the highest psych -move- to the destination crag.

Drive, it can do amazing this for you.
It can also get you broken. Have fun it's only climbing!
Winning is not as much fun as losing is painful!!
Learning to be as good as you can be within the life you must live making a living raising a family and everything else that happens I have found for me harder & far more rewarding than winning once was.

Using the Anderson brothers as an example is complicated, not least because their pre-14 resume indicates a deep reservoir of athletic capacity and experience. So they are not "everyman" by a long shot. In my admittedly limited experience as a climbing coach and student of the sport, the bottom line is finger strength and that is not something you can easily train for. It's easy to injure connective tissue in the process and super hard to know where the line is between too much and too little. The next bottom line is one-arm lock off strength, especially on a single pad edge. While not mandatory for all 14s, it's a major asset to have for any but the more slabby routes or boulders. The final asset, and technically the easiest to train is power-endurance. The ability to bust out 50-75% capacity moves, maybe 15 reps, is key to actually climbing things. Lining up those three factors in one individual is not that common at the 14 and up level. Then having the right circumstances (time, money, location, etc) sets up new obstacles. The influx of new climbers via gyms creates the illusion that everyone is climbing harder but the reality is different. We are simply getting a bigger pool to select candidates from.

Peter Bealwrote: Using the Anderson brothers as an example is complicated, not least because their pre-14 resume indicates a deep reservoir of athletic capacity and experience. So they are not "everyman" by a long shot. In my admittedly limited experience as a climbing coach and student of the sport, the bottom line is finger strength and that is not something you can easily train for. It's easy to injure connective tissue in the process and super hard to know where the line is between too much and too little. The next bottom line is one-arm lock off strength, especially on a single pad edge. While not mandatory for all 14s, it's a major asset to have for any but the more slabby routes or boulders. The final asset, and technically the easiest to train is power-endurance. The ability to bust out 50-75% capacity moves, maybe 15 reps, is key to actually climbing things. Lining up those three factors in one individual is not that common at the 14 and up level. Then having the right circumstances (time, money, location, etc) sets up new obstacles. The influx of new climbers via gyms creates the illusion that everyone is climbing harder but the reality is different. We are simply getting a bigger pool to select candidates from.

If I recall both Anderson brothers were Division 1 college athletes. And while not climbing specific D1 means you're already in the 99th percentile of athletic ability for your sport.

Mark Paulsonwrote:

You murdered the Anderson brothers!?

I've got a buddy who, though he's been climbing for years, just recently broke through the V10 barrier with aplomb.  Stocky build, mid-30's not particularly graceful, didn't grow up in gyms. We've always been pretty closely matched in the past, but he suddenly got -way- stronger over the past year or so.  Did he just, out of nowhere, get "gifted" all of a sudden? Not likely. Something tells me it had more to do with his purchasing and following to a t the expensive Lattice program, which ultimately involved him getting up at 5:00 in the morning to hangboard three days a week, in addition to his existing 3-4 gym sessions.  He was willing to do the work (he's also a married, PhD-ed professional with a newborn baby, btw).

I'll be the first to admit, "I'm not willing to do the work".  I don't know why it's so hard for other people to do the same.

Other people won't admit they're doing the wrong work.

Like the tall Moonboarder earlier in this thread. A Moonboard V4 or V5 just ain't that hard. Sure some are sandbagged, some are awkward for tall people, but they don't take a hell of a lot of strength or technique. Just figuring out positions and precision. I have found those that climb well on rock have way less of an issue with this on the Moonboard.

Mark E Dixonwrote: @JNE- this is really insightful.

I'll probably get flagged for this, but I've long wondered about the "Pro climber's girlfriend/boyfriend training plan".

Sure sometimes the pro bonds with another pro, but often it's with an average climber.
But despite that, the new girl/boyfriend is sending 8b+ in no time.
I think hanging with great climbers, getting their advice and encouragement is part of the explanation.
I suspect the new partners also try really hard, so as to not be left behind.
And can try anything they like, counting on getting their draws hung or removed during their partner's warmups.
Plus they're probably genetically gifted ;-)

Why would you get flagged for this? It is absolutely true, climbing with people much stronger than you is the best way to get better.

Personal story: The first group of climbers I knew were ~5.10 climbers. They had climbed a lot longer than me, so I was looking up to them for guidance and wisdom. One of the nuggets of wisdom they imparted was that people normally lead about 1 number grade below their toproping ability. They all thought that it was possible that one day they would toprope 12a, and lead 11s. Someday... somehow...

Fortunately for me, one of the girls in this group briefly dated a much stronger climber. Very briefly, lol. They broke up after a week, after he went climbing with this large group of 5.10climbers, and tried to argue with this “lead a number below your toprope” bullshit. Everyone thought he was wrong, but I thought, you know, he is climbing 12, you guys are climbing 5.10, maybe he knows something... Also fortunately for me, he he was looking for a climbing partner

By climbing with this guy, I got introduced into a completely different world. He knew a lot of people who climbed the same grade as he did, they all were very friendly and great at teaching me things I didn’t know. They moved the 5.12 grade from that mystical realm to a regular everyday occurrence that many people did without much fanfare. I saw how people tried the route over and over, and how they went from hanging at every bolt to sending.  But they also made it clear they weren’t hanging ropes for me to toprope. They didn’t get better by toproping routes someone put up for them, things didn’t work that way. If I wanted to climb a route, I should just try it. I finished my first season of climbing outdoors by redpointing a 10d.

Meeting/climbing with that one first strong climber opened the door to meeting more climbers, including some of my favorite partners of many years. A year later, I redpointed my first 11c. A year after that, my first 12a

Just to be clear, I started climbing in my 30s, with two young children, and going climbing outside maybe 5-6 times a year, often with kids in tow.

Then I met, and started climbing regularly, with Mike Anderson and his wife. And they moved my understanding of “possible” even farther out. The 5.13 didn’t seem theoretically that much more difficult than 5.12. Sure, it was obviously harder, but in a regular incremental way, not in the impossible way. I saw people working and sending 13s regularly. And they didn’t seem super-human athletes, they just put a lot of effort into it. After following the RTCM plan, I flashed a 12b, and sent a 12c. Still on the “I can go climbing twice in October, and twice in November” full-time-working-mom schedule.

Sure, I do think natural gifts do make a difference. And the amount of work makes a difference. Another friend of mine also was climbing a lot with Mike Anderson at the same time. And following the same training plan, but he was in his 20s, single, and able to put in more time and effort into climbing. I vividly remember that we were projecting the same 12b in spring of one year. 6 months later he onsighted 12d.  8 years later, He has since climbed many 5.14.

 I personally don’t think that I would ever climb 5.14. There is a reality of me being in my mid-40s, and there are injuries. The knee wasn’t climbing-related, but it cost me two years, at least. The shoulder was climbing-related. Both times I had fully recovered, and went on to become stronger than I was before the injury, but the two of those surgeries combined have stalled me for 5? years. Who knows what I would have been climbing if I didn’t have to come back twice? Who knows where I would be if I had started climbing when I was 20, and didn’t have kids? Wondering is nonproductive  But I see no reason not to try climbing harder than I am climbing right now. I’m still getting stronger. I’m still improving, even if it is slow. Why call it quits and declare myself done now? As long as I’m enjoying it, I’ll keep at it.  

It's weird, but can be figured out.

Julia W wrote: and making a statement like that at least makes me feel like total crap even though the statement is total BS.

Maybe that guy Lena knew  is available now to help take you to the next level

You must have not been a great comp kid because every kid that climbs outside that I've met has climbed well over v7, most into the V9-10 range and into the 5.13's. I was in Bishop during Spring Break last year when there were a ton of HS teams there and the lowest level I witnessed was kids basically running laps on High Plains Drifter for a photo shoot. Locally I have seen the kids that didn't make the rec team run fitness laps on a v8 traverse.

This thread made me think back to the level of people I know when I started climbing 3 years ago. Most are not much if any better. Mostly due to injury, overcomplicating their "training", and having zero sense of how to get the most out of limited outdoor time. A great example in this thread was someone mentioning how bad climbers will just fire from the bottom over and over with bad beta and never send. Another one is they think they know so much about beta and technique and often say "I can't do that" (often without trying), don't pay attention to nuance (maybe turning the foot and ankle to toe in properly as opposed to just plopping a foot on a hold), and subsequently don't accumulate skilled practice.

Julia W wrote: That statement is just so inaccurate. I train hard, eat well, and rest properly. I started climbing a pretty young age, I used to be a comp kid.  However, I know damn well I will never climb V10 or 5.14. So no any "average" climber can not climb V10/5.14. Time for my opinions, something most people can achieve is 5.10/ V3. For the few former or current comp kids on this website I think a reasonable grade is V7/5.13. This is not to say no one can climb harder then this ever. Just that most people will never be able to climb V10/5.14 and making a statement like that at least makes me feel like total crap even though the statement is total BS.

The town where I went to college and where I learned to climb was a small college town. Many of the people I met there through climbing were people who came there for school to be in a place where climbing was an accessible thing that people did, so they were people genuinely interested in climbing. I would say the mean of achievement for bouldering was about V7 for the dedicated climbers, and extended up to V10 (at least when I went to school) for the ones who stood out for their talent. Also, when I went to school there, for the crack climbing routes the area is really known for, the mean of achievement was about 5.10 and the especially talented guys could get up 5.11, and 5.12 was practically mythical. With few exceptions, the crack climbing guys did not boulder and the boulderers did not crack climb. Worth noting is that bouldering topped out at about V8/9 in terms of having more than a tiny number of examples of the grade and route climbing topped out around 5.12 in the same sense of having numerous examples for the grade. This was in 2002/3 to about 2007/8.

The best comp kids are amazing, but there are comp kids climbing at all levels and having a good time doing it.
There's a wide range of ability and progress.
Just starting young doesn't guarantee you'll be a phenom.

@Julia- choosing not to make the trade-offs needed to climb V10/5.14 isn't the same thing as not having the potential to climb V10/5.14

Julia W wrote: That statement is just so inaccurate. I train hard, eat well, and rest properly. I started climbing a pretty young age, I used to be a comp kid.  However, I know damn well I will never climb V10 or 5.14. So no any "average" climber can not climb V10/5.14. Time for my opinions, something most people can achieve is 5.10/ V3. For the few former or current comp kids on this website I think a reasonable grade is V7/5.13. This is not to say no one can climb harder then this ever. Just that most people will never be able to climb V10/5.14 and making a statement like that at least makes me feel like total crap even though the statement is total BS.

I am sure it wasn't the intention of Kris and Nate to make people feel like crap. It is interesting to me that a lot of people take that statement so personally.

"an average climber could do this with a lot of work" + "I don't think I can do this" doesn't need to add up to "feel like crap".

FWIW, the podcast in question actually puts a lot of qualifiers on that statement.

Lena chitawrote:

I am sure it wasn't the intention of Kris and Nate to make people feel like crap. It is interesting to me that a lot of people take that statement so personally.

"an average climber could do this with a lot of work" + "I don't think I can do this" doesn't need to add up to "feel like crap".

FWIW, the podcast in question actually puts a lot of qualifiers on that statement.

To be fair, the Kris Hampton trademark is to say that climbers are failing because they don't commit and don't try hard enough.

It's never a lack of strength, always a lack of will.

He likes to sound a little harsh saying it. Makes it sound like the real deal, he's the only one willing to tell the hard truth.

So if you aren't reaching your goals, it's because you're probably just a poser lacking authentic motivation  :-)

Mark E Dixonwrote:

To be fair, the Kris Hampton trademark is to say that climbers are failing because they don't commit and don't try hard enough.

It's never a lack of strength, always a lack of will.

He likes to sound a little harsh saying it. Makes it sound like the real deal, he's the only one willing to tell the hard truth.

So, hasn't changed a bit since his rap days, only then it was all about offwidth, now sport climbing, heh.

Mani the Money explains it all: ​The grade everyone can reach​​​

rebootwrote:

So, hasn't changed a bit since his rap days, only then it was all about offwidth, now sport climbing, heh.

And "community"

Edited to add- Mani is great

Sprayloard Overstokerwrote: You cannot try hard and throw a 95mph fastball. It is a gift from birth like all similar elite level athletic achievements that start with genetic gifts and then take a lifetime of dedicated training to achieve.

This jumped out at me as an ex-baseball pitcher (with a ruined, 'scoped right shoulder to show for it).

In baseball, kids really do come out of nowhere and throw 90mph as skinny, lanky high schoolers, analogous to Dave Graham climbing 14a (or whatever it was) after a year. Baseballs are lightweight, so throwing velocity is a function of speed, power, and flexibility, all of which rapidly worsen as you age. Those pitchers have physically peaked by 25; after that your gains are coming from improving your tactics, delivery, accuracy, or off-speed pitches, where the improvement curve is pretty flat (and also a function of your maximum velocity).

Climbing is not particularly powerful or fast (as sports go) and is extremely technical, rewarding of endurance, and primarily reliant on isometric strength. If your lifestyle supports it, you can improve on all those things into your 40s and most of them into your 50s. I think the real trick is that "lifestyle" optimization is hard as hell once you have a family or job with real responsibilities. That's going to throw most people off in the long run, whether or not they could have, with ideal conditions, achieved their climbing goals.

Back-of-the-envelope, it's pretty reasonable for an unexceptional but dedicated climber to progress multiple grades their first few years, a grade per year for another 4–5 years, and then another grade every 2–3 years up to their true genetic limit. Say that's V4 in two years, up to V7 in five years, up to V10 in eleven years. That's not a crazy progression if everything's working for you — stress, access, money, time, etc. But it's obvious how much more difficult that would be to maintain from 30–41 than 20–31 (especially if you need to spend the first few years adjusting your body composition).

Mark E Dixonwrote:

To be fair, the Kris Hampton trademark is to say that climbers are failing because they don't commit and don't try hard enough.

It's never a lack of strength, always a lack of will.

He likes to sound a little harsh saying it. Makes it sound like the real deal, he's the only one willing to tell the hard truth.

So if you aren't reaching your goals, it's because you're probably just a poser lacking authentic motivation  :-)

Totally!

I’ve known Kris for many years, and his brand of harsh is just fine with me. So maybe he is trying to make people feel bad, LOL. It just doesn’t make me feel bad, it makes me motivated 

 But for his most recent take on motivation, listen to their  Lockdown episode: Motivated or Not. :)

I feel like it depends on so many factors (age, genetics, etc.). My hunch is that anyone can climb 5.12/V5, anyone super dedicated with the right training/diet/climbing routine can climb 5.13/V8, and anyone super dedicated with the right combination of factors AND good genetics can climb 5.14/V10. 

One of the best experiences in climbing is setting and achieving a goal. Grades are an easy way to do that. Grades also vary widely and "climbing v10/5.14" suggests that an individual can complete this grade most of the time in most places in a reasonable amount of attempts (3-5 days or < 30 attempts).  "v10" and "8a" have become the gold standard for entering "hard climbing" . Most climbers will never achieve this grade and that's OK. Focus on having fun whatever that means for you and remember, no one else really cares how hard you climb.

"The best climber is the one having the most fun" and, the harder you can climb the more fun you can have.

I've been coaching youth climbing as well as guiding on rock for over a decade and have done so across the full spectrum of styles and levels. I work with climbers from beginners to olympians and world/national champions. My observation is that even starting as young as 5 years old with the latest training regime and world class coaching reaching v10/5.14 will come much easier to some and may never become a reality for others. There is a minimum finger strength as well as overall strength to weight ratio that is often easier for certain body types to achieve. However, climbing is largely a technique driven sport so even if an individual has the "perfect" strength/weight ratio it may not result in sending. Conversely there are individuals whose strength level is lower than one would expect may achieve the grades of v10/5.14. Climbing higher grades is as much about experience and technique as it is ability and intelligence. If an individual wishes to increase strength/power intention should be on the training experience, this will result in the greatest overall progress as well as longevity in the sport. It is also worth mentioning that the dark art of long term projecting coupled with specific movement rehearsal, replicated on an artificial wall, will likely result in sending at or beyond ones "limit" but may take a great deal of time.