When is the Gunks Reopening ?

Brassmonkey wrote: Oh I don't actually think that was their intention, and I doubt you do too.

Regardless, I actually am totally fine with nickel and diming a private preserve that has 23 million in liquid assets, that still charges what they do.

The tax filings aren't difficult to find. The preserve had 23 million in net assets in 2018, but that includes the value of the land and other non-liquid assets. Liquid assets they have just over 1 million.

I think they do the best they can with what they have next to one of the largest cities on the planet. The best and most crowded days of climbing I've ever had were in the gunk's, I can only imagine the shitshow if the govt owned it!

Lyle M wrote: Colorado state parks started a reservation system. Could be a solid first step for existing members. Not sure if anyone that manages the gunks is even reading this thread though, haha. 

Yup, here I am. I’m not gonna weigh in on much because all I do is carry out mangled climbers and take out the trash, but I can say that the preserve did the right thing by closing. They tried to minimize tourism and out of region travel and they lost $$$$$$ for doing it, and they don’t get state revenue like Minnewaska. Believe me man, this place ain’t as rich as people think and there no one really making bank out of it.

A member here to thank Lucander.  Hey, it's a rough spot right now.  And the Preserve is not the Mountain House.  Or the owners of MMH.  The Preserve does not have an infinite supply of funds to allow everything to stay clean and orderly, for Lucander to do his job, the rangers to do theirs, the other folks to do research and administration, etc.  The Preserve is there for education of the public and recreation.  If we can climb, fine.  If not, well, it's temporary.

Brassmonkey wrote: Oh I don't actually think that was their intention, and I doubt you do too.

Regardless, I actually am totally fine with nickel and diming a private preserve that has 23 million in liquid assets, that still charges what they do.

I agree...

...and this statement is vague: 

"When will rock climbing and bouldering be reintroduced? 

The Preserve is working closely with the Access Fund, local climbing organizations, including the Gunks Climbers’ Coalition, and regional climbing locations on a plan to safely reintroduce climbing and

 bouldering. 

We hope to welcome climbers and boulderers back to the cliffs soon and Preserve climbing members will receive an extension of their membership based on when these activities resume."

Time for some MATHS kids!!!

1.  $60 - Basic
2.  $50 - Basic Senior (62+) / Student
3.  $105 - PLUS+
4.  $95 - PLUS+ Senior (62+) / Student
5.  $350 - Supporting
6.  $550 - Sustaining
7.  $1,000 - Sentinel Preserver Level
8.  $5,000 - Trapps Circle Preserver Level
9.  $2,500 - Bonticou Circle Preserver Level
10.  $10,000 - Millbrook Circle Preserver Level

"...a major destination for rock climbers, hosting 50,000 climbers each year who enjoy more than 1,000 climbing routes."

So even if we were able to climb on a Basic, $60 membership, and assuming we were all members not just day-use users then that's very roughly $3,000,000 from climbers alone!

However, it is obviously not safe to climb yet. So the question remains, how will the Mohonk Preserve do right by our paid memberships?

So when you say, "nickel and diming" the preserve...I just have to sit back and laugh! We're talking about millions of dollars here, and the last time I checked not everybody is employed and making

enough money to even be able to renew a membership when it expires which will be sooner rather than later.

Nonetheless, I hope the peregrines have a successful nesting season without our noises out there for a while....longer?!?!

Wait for the upset old guys who had stable jobs and are living off their pensions with plenty of money to attack in 3....2....

A Non wrote: I think they do the best they can with what they have next to one of the largest cities on the planet. The best and most crowded days of climbing I've ever had were in the gunk's, I can only imagine the shitshow if the govt owned it!

Dude really? I love climbing in government owned areas. They're called National Parks, National Forests, etc... They seem to manage their climbing areas just as well as the Mohonk Preserve.

Yes, they try to shutdown climbing sometimes when we get out of control with our bolts and fires, but that's why we have the Access Fund.

Last time I checked it wasn't the government that was the problem, it was the administration in charge that was the problem.

Example:

"Bears Ears National Monument is a United States national monument located in San Juan County in southeastern Utah, established by President Barack Obama by presidential proclamation on December 28, 2016. The monument's original size was 1,351,849 acres (2,112.264 sq mi; 5,470.74 km2), which was controversially reduced 85% by President Donald Trump on December 4, 2017." 

how about a bit of gratitude for:
- being able to climb on a private preserve
- short approaches on well maintained carriage roads
- hiking trails that are well maintained
- parking areas that are well maintained
- pit toilets that are well maintained
- a crew of rangers trained in high angle rescue
- a board of directors that is climber friendly

Al Pine wrote: how about a bit of gratitude for:
- being able to climb on a private preserve
- short approaches on well maintained carriage roads
- hiking trails that are well maintained
- parking areas that are well maintained
- pit toilets that are well maintained
- a crew of rangers trained in high angle rescue
- a board of directors that is climber friendly

Here! Here! Al Pine...you're right on with all that!

wow they upped the price again? damn... the gunks is getting pretty expensive. i thought it was a lot when it was $85.

chris blatchley wrote: wow they upped the price again? damn... the gunks is getting pretty expensive. i thought it was a lot when it was $85.

that's the rub! i can go to any national park in America annually for $80 assuming i'm willing to drive to it and hike in to it.

so who depends on who more? does the mohonk preserve need that NY, CT, MA, PA, etc... climber money, or does the climber need the Preserve?

prices keep going up, but does the access to the climbing change any? just a question.

bottom line is, the gunks is the like the best outdoor climbing gym ever! nothing in America really compares to it.

start selling off your old gear, saving up your gas money, and keep your fingers crossed it will be safe to go climbing again in 2020 at some point.

chris blatchley wrote: wow they upped the price again? damn... the gunks is getting pretty expensive. i thought it was a lot when it was $85.

The day and annual pass prices have barely kept up with inflation, even going negative in some years.

Brassmonkey wrote:

Gratitude?  You pay for whats above.

Well maintained pit toilets?  There is basically one, and the poop is frequently near the top because there aren't adequate facilities.  If they put in more toilets less people would be pooping and peeing in random spots.  

Edit to add, most of the most meaningful, useful, time-consuming, and tiring trail work is done by VOLUNTEERS. I'd be happy to pay more if the trail crew saw a dime of it, instead of it going to a completely unnecessary multi-million dollar visitor center. 

And I’m glad to pay for it... 

Has anyone complaining ever volunteered for trail maintenance? Serious question...

Marc801 C wrote:

The day and annual pass prices have barely kept up with inflation, even going negative in some years.

I'm not doubting this, but what are you comparing it too? 

Would you use the cost of the first climbing pass started in year ______ as a baseline data point?

Can you back this claim up with a site or source?

I think the main concern is the fact that the price keeps going up, but the amenities remain the same despite the fact that volunteers are doing the majority of the work.

So where is the money going? There aren't many bolts to replace, but I have seen the crew putting in some awesome anchors so that the trees wouldn't be degraded.

Then the peregrine nesting shuts down the climbing for quite some time (which is totally understandable as the peregrines are endangered).

So does the rising price warrant the lack of climbing access and upkeep at times? Probably...because...

We're a captured audience. If you wanna climb at the best outdoor trad gym...you're gonna pay!

I still remember when you could park at the lookout spot to climb at the Nears!

So where is the money going? There aren't many bolts to replace, but I have seen the crew putting in some awesome anchors 

These anchors were installed by volunteers as well. The hardware was donated by the ASCA and from a fundraiser. 

Pierre de St Croix wrote: Then the peregrine nesting shuts down the climbing for quite some time (which is totally understandable as the peregrines are endangered).

I agree that the Preserve is tremendously overpriced. It's a great resource and I appreciate it, but with its enormous popularity and huge visitor numbers, to charge as much as they do and still issue pleas for donations seems odd.

You wrote that the peregrines are endangered. They're not. This error is forgivable as the Preserve itself has spread this misinformation (perhaps to aid with their pleas for donations).

Peregrines are one of the tremendous success stories of bringing a creature back from endangered status to highly sustainable. They were removed from the endangered species list in 1999.

Here is the paragraph on peregrines from the Preserve's April 8th newsletter:


"Conservation Science staff are monitoring the three pairs of endangered Peregrine Falcons nesting at the Preserve..."

One would expect the Preserve, which has played such an important part in the restoration of peregrines, and with its resident (and salaried) peregrine expert to at least understand the peregrine's status rather than spreading misinformation.

I have no strong opinion on when the Preserve should reopen for climbing. I do feel strongly that the Preserve should extend our memberships to make up for the time in which we are unable to utilize the Preserve for our intended recreation. Reopening for hiking does not represent value to me with my climbing-level membership.

Pierre de St Croix wrote:

I'm not doubting this, but what are you comparing it too? 

Would you use the cost of the first climbing pass started in year ______ as a baseline data point?

Can you back this claim up with a site or source?

Yes, me. Here's what I wrote in a similar thread in Oct 2017:

* the Trust, now Preserve, has been charging a land access/use fee since the 60's.
* the price has gone up below the rate of inflation. When I started climbing there (1973), the day fee was $4. That is $22.72 in today's dollars. The annual pass in 1976 was $35 iirc, which equals $152.25 in today's dollars.
* this has been discussed ad nauseam on MP and RC for years - and you can search for those conversations
* the day pass is $20 - annual climbing pass is $95 - meaning you break even on the 5th day - any days after that drives down the per day cost for that year.

What's up "Stein Pull" ??...long time...no see!

Thanks for the Peregrine Update! I think the ban-width at the crag seems excessive at times. Why such a wide swath of closure for a bird that is not longer endangered I wonder???

I'm assuming they want the nesting to be a success...more humans, more problems.

I agree with you that, "the Preserve should extend our memberships to make up for the time in which we are unable to utilize the Preserve for our intended recreation. Reopening for hiking does not represent value to me with my climbing-level membership."

How will the "Box dude/lady/bunny" know when they look at the month and year on our pass that we're still owed the proper time extension (if that in fact exists for the duration of quarantine or not, which hopefully it will)???

Dana Bartlett wrote:

That's all very nice, but really, does it justify the huge amount of wealth they have or the ludicrously exorbitant prices they charge to climbers - most of whom are very financially strapped and don't have a stable job?

I would not describe gunks climbers as very financially strapped and without stable jobs. Almost everyone I've met that climbs there is doing just fine. That said, it is getting to the point where gunks climbing is not accessible to a lot of people. 

Dana Bartlett wrote:

Sorry, I was being facetious in response to a previous post.  A yearly membership, is great deal.

My bad! Shoulda read more carefully

Stein Pull wrote:

You wrote that the peregrines are endangered. They're not. This error is forgivable as the Preserve itself has spread this misinformation (perhaps to aid with their pleas for donations).

Its NYS listed endangered. Should google it