Caught Covid climbing?

David K wrote: The studies I am aware of that suggest this fall into two categories:

1. The study which was originally advertised as coming from Stanford, which was literally performed by a hedge fund manager who used the study to argue that the economy will be fine, and has been debunked by almost every scientist who has reviewed it.
2. There are also a bunch of studies which initially concluded that Covid19 can be asymptomatic which upon follow-up, discovered that almost no patients were asymptomatic, they were just presymptomatic: it can be a long time before symptoms develop, but they do develop in almost all patients.

In general I agree with the rest of what you said in your post, just wanted to correct this minor point.

On the Diamond Princess, 300 of the 700 people that tested positive never showed any symptoms. Thats the ones tested, they estimate the number is even higher since they didnt test everyone. There are large amounts of people that will catch it and never know. 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/24/us/diamond-princess-cruise-ship-asymptomatic-tests/index.html
https://www.lshtm.ac.uk/newsevents/news/2020/almost-75-people-board-diamond-princess-covid-19-may-have-been-asymptomatic

Luke Bertelsen wrote:

Is this like almost sending your project?  Because I've done that lots of times.  

I expect it is even more like "almost pregnant"

L Kap wrote: Contrary to what you might be expecting, I'd love to know that the risk of getting Covid from outdoor climbing is super low. The rub for me is that I'm not willing to be the guinea pig. This is why I'm trying to learn from people who are. 

How about a little common sense instead of trying to anecdotally confirm something that’s pretty much obvious? You ain’t catching it climbing, many, many other mundane activities will get you infected before your climbing partner does. Is that how you see people that were climbing during the stay at home order, as guinea pigs? 

Fehim Hasecic wrote: How about a little common sense instead of trying to anecdotally confirm something that’s pretty much obvious? You ain’t catching it climbing, 

That's a statement of faith, not fact. I honestly don't understand the resistance to asking people to share their experiences so we can learn from the community. Let the chips fall where they may. 

many, many other mundane activities will get you infected before your climbing partner does. 

That may be true, but as I stated above, climbing would require me to be closer to another human being outside my household than anything else I'm doing. Possibly several other human beings, if other people at the crag are not distancing from me when I am climbing or belaying and I can't simply step aside to avoid them.

Is that how you see people that were climbing during the stay at home order, as guinea pigs? 

Yes, willing ones, in the same way that all early adopters are. 

L Kap wrote: That's a statement of faith, not fact. I honestly don't understand the resistance to asking people to share their experiences so we can learn from the community. Let the chips fall where they may.

That may be true, but as I stated above, climbing would require me to be closer to another human being outside my household than anything else I'm doing. Possibly several other human beings, if other people at the crag are not distancing from me when I am climbing or belaying and I can't simply step aside to avoid them.

Yes, willing ones, in the same way that all early adopters are. 

No, in fact studies conducted within narcissist brains confirm the common sense notion that viral activity drops to 0 when sending sweet prodges, brah.

L Kap wrote:

Lena, thanks for sharing this. Sounds like you think you caught whatever your climbing partner had, which might or might not have been Covid.

You mentioned you shared a couple of car rides, which seems to be a risk factor for catching respiratory stuff. May I ask if you had direct physical contact with the climbing partner - hug, handshake, tight quarters on a small ledge, I dunno, Euro-style cheek kisses? Or was it just non-contact belaying? 

No, I haven’t kissed or hugged the guy, LOL. But we spent 3 days hanging out together, at the crag, then cooking dinner, sitting across the table playing board games, etc. and yes, car rides to/from crags. 

It is plenty of contact, and nobody else around me was sick (not that I’m aware of), so it would be a reasonable assumption that I caught whatever bug he was having. 

Colonel Mustard wrote:

No, in fact studies conducted within narcissist brains confirm the common sense notion that viral activity drops to 0 when sending sweet prodges, brah.

Ya man, that’s why the climbers were falling ill exponentially, ultimately taking out hospitals and SARs teams. But hey, who am I to tell you, just another narcissistic Boulderite that’s patting himself on the back for “social distancing “ and helping to flatten the curve in our haven.

Fehim Hasecic wrote:

Ya man, that’s why the climbers were falling ill exponentially, ultimately taking out hospitals and SARs teams. But hey, who am I to tell you, just another narcissistic Boulderite that’s patting himself on the back for “social distancing “ and helping to flatten the curve in our haven.

Why does it seem to anger you if somebody wants to identify points of risk and mitigate them? You can climb and be mindful of others (whether or not you agree with their measures) and still totally send the very important prodge, brah! Yay!!!

I doubt one could know how covid was contracted. It COULD be from climbing, if say both your regular climber partner and yourself fell sick... But really it could also be a bunch of other places...

Lena chita wrote:

No, I haven’t kissed or hugged the guy, LOL. But we spent 3 days hanging out together, at the crag, then cooking dinner, sitting across the table playing board games, etc. and yes, car rides to/from crags. 

It is plenty of contact, and nobody else around me was sick (not that I’m aware of), so it would be a reasonable assumption that I caught whatever bug he was having. 

Thanks again, Lena. Sorry, didn't mean to imply anything scandalous! Just trying to figure out the risk factors.

I have another question, if that's okay. When you say you cooked and sat across the table playing board games, were you outside at a campsite or indoors, like inside an RV or AirBNB?

Colonel Mustard wrote:

Why does it seem to anger you if somebody wants to identify points of risk and mitigate them? You can climb and be mindful of others (whether or not you agree with their measures) and still totally send the very important prodge, brah! Yay!!!

She’s asking for anecdotal evidence, I’m not sure how full proof is that. Anyone that’s concerned about contracting the virus should lay low and wait it out until the vaccine is out. Otherwise, do as the CDC or state tells you is best to prevent being infected and go about your daily life.

Am I going out to restaurants, farmers markets, any other indoor/outdoor gatherings or anything that’s not grocery shopping until vaccine comes out, you better believe I’m not. Am I gonna go climbing or anything outdoors, yes I will. That’s a “risk” I’m willing to take. 
I’m angry that people can’t find a compromise. You’re either a guinea pig or sanctimonious. There are a lot of people in the middle, caught up in this nonsense.

Fehim Hasecic wrote:

She’s asking for anecdotal evidence, I’m not sure how full proof is that. Anyone that’s concerned about contracting the virus should lay low and wait it out until the vaccine is out. Otherwise, do as the CDC or state tells you is best to prevent being infected and go about your daily life.

Am I going out to restaurants, farmers markets, any other indoor/outdoor gatherings or anything that’s not grocery shopping until vaccine comes out, you better believe I’m not. Am I gonna go climbing or anything outdoors, yes I will. That’s a “risk” I’m willing to take. 
I’m angry that people can’t find a compromise. You’re either a guinea pig or sanctimonious ass. There are a lot of people in the middle, caught up in this nonsense.

Fehim, I'm not trying to polarize this into sides and enemies. It's not all-or-nothing, that climbing right now is either insanely dangerous or it's as safe as mother's milk.

I'm just asking people what they are experiencing so that I / we have a better sense of what's actually going on. From that Access Fund webinar I posted, Dr. Paul Pottinger gave his opinion about how to climb outside with reduced risk. This pandemic is so new to all of us, we'd be stupid not to constantly be talking to each other and sharing whether the advice is solid or if nope, they missed something.

Lena's experience is interesting to me because she seems to have caught something respiratory while outside, but she was sharing a lot of time and space over three days with a person who was newly coming down sick. No judgement on Lena, but it's pretty clear to me that doing that would be outside my current comfort zone.

I haven't yet heard any stories about people who think they picked up a respiratory illness from a cautious day of cragging at an isolated area with a trusted partner, which gives me some hope. I'm still going to keep listening a while longer though. Not because I'm a pompous ass who wants to be proved right. I mean, I'm not above that, but I'd rather find out that you and others are right that climbing outside can be safe with some basic precautions. I'm not an early adopter in any walk of life, but especially not in this one. I'm risk averse, very data curious, and willing to change my mind over time as new information comes in. Y'all can hate me for that if you want, but I don't really see what purpose it serves.  

I for one think Lena’s not coming clean on what really went down with that dude.  

just merge circles. you already do it with your own household. just pick another with a climbing partner. somebody has to go to the grocery store anyway. it's not like there's such a thing as zero exposure vectors... and climbing with one person is way less risk than grocery shopping near 50.

Fehim Hasecic wrote:

She’s asking for anecdotal evidence, I’m not sure how full proof is that. Anyone that’s concerned about contracting the virus should lay low and wait it out until the vaccine is out. Otherwise, do as the CDC or state tells you is best to prevent being infected and go about your daily life.

Am I going out to restaurants, farmers markets, any other indoor/outdoor gatherings or anything that’s not grocery shopping until vaccine comes out, you better believe I’m not. Am I gonna go climbing or anything outdoors, yes I will. That’s a “risk” I’m willing to take. 
I’m angry that people can’t find a compromise. You’re either a guinea pig or sanctimonious. There are a lot of people in the middle, caught up in this nonsense.

She should just not climb because of your difficulty coping with an ambiguous, morally fraught situation? Yeah, this all really, really sucks. You want to justify why you don’t want to accommodate, I suppose.

Nick Goldsmith wrote: Connor.  Probobly Only in VT are people smart enough to use hand sanitizer climbing...  have not climbed in NH yet this spring but here in VT there is about99 wearing face masks in grocery stores. Had to go to  to W leb NH last week and it was about 60%

Yeah, VT has done a good job so far. I've noticed people for the most part have been pretty considerate about this whole thing. 

TLDR...

so did anybody catch the Covid from climbing on fomenting routes? my guess is probably not...

Not sure yet.   We’re all still getting over our sadness from seeing this thread.  Apparently you were the lucky one Slim.

L Kap wrote:

Thanks again, Lena. Sorry, didn't mean to imply anything scandalous! Just trying to figure out the risk factors.

I have another question, if that's okay. When you say you cooked and sat across the table playing board games, were you outside at a campsite or indoors, like inside an RV or AirBNB?

Mostly outside, campground/picnic shelter-type situation. But we also probably hung out inside for an hour or so in the mornings/evenings. 

I think you are giving it too much thought. Have you ever caught a cold or a flu, and thought that you likely got it from a friend, co-worker, or family member?
 In simplest terms, the process of  catching this virus is no different from catching any other respiratory virus. The R0 is different, the symptoms, the consequences  etc. but at the end of the day, if you get enough viral load, you will get sick. That is true for a cold, a flu, and for SARS-Cov2. You can get that viral load in one bolus, when someone coughs in your face, or you can get it just by sitting across from someone for a few hours and breathing the virus particles that they exhale. People are looking at this virus as if it is doing some magical, previously-unheard-of special virus voodoo. It isn’t. 

I’m not saying that the virus is not serious. It has higher mortality rate than the flu, and that is very significant. But you catch it the same way you catch other viruses. And the same precautions would work for this virus as for other similar viruses. You may not have bothered to take precautions before, and now you should. That’s it.

slim wrote: TLDR...

so did anybody catch the Covid from climbing on fomenting routes? my guess is probably not...

Nothing definite as of yet.

One person caught a mild respiratory illness from a climbing partner on a 3-day trip in March. Unclear if it was Covid. In that case, there was lots of hanging out and campground stuff in addition to climbing, plus a couple of 30-minute car rides together.