Dogs and Crags - An Accident Report and Opening a Can of Worms I'm sure... *warning graphic and detailed description of accident*

Kirtis Courkamp wrote: Have you ever heard of the route called astrodog ... 

I have now!

Josh Gibbel wrote: I quit bringing my dog to the crag. Nothing but headaches. People act like they don't mind your dog, but in reality most people do actually mind. That's why I quit bringing her out climbing.

I don't bring my dog climbing as well but I can only say that when I climb locally. What do you do when you go somewhere for the weekend or a long week? 

I ask because honestly, this is always a tough situation for me. I love to bring my dog camping with me which usually involves climbing. I tend to avoid crowds, get up early, and always have my dog leashed up with either my partner in reach or I am in reach. If more than one other party shows up to the crag we move walls. 

I have thought about having friends watch the dog but that usually doesn't line up. 

Josh Gibbel wrote: I quit bringing my dog to the crag. Nothing but headaches. People act like they don't mind your dog, but in reality most people do actually mind. That's why I quit bringing her out climbing.

And Bingo was her name o!

Eric Danner wrote:

I don't bring my dog climbing as well but I can only say that when I climb locally. What do you do when you go somewhere for the weekend or a long week? 

I ask because honestly, this is always a tough situation for me. I love to bring my dog camping with me which usually involves climbing. I tend to avoid crowds, get up early, and always have my dog leashed up with either my partner in reach or I am in reach. If more than one other party shows up to the crag we move walls. 

I have thought about having friends watch the dog but that usually doesn't line up. 

Pet sitters man. There are insured ones who actually make a business and have options for they're service to tailor to your benifit. Smh damn bourbon. What I'm saying they have options and price ranges. Come by for 1 hour a day or stay longer and do more... that might make more sense

Wife and I bring our well behaved dog to our local single-pitch sport climbing area all the time. We choose to keep her leashed out of respect for fellow climbers and it's easier that way. There's always one of us on the ground w/her. Dog minds her own business and usually gets fussed over 1-2X/day by groups of college kids. I'm sure some people are bothered by the mere presence of our dog, but I'm bothered by the mere presence of some people. Guess that's tolerance.

We have seen examples of problematic and dangerous dog behavior at almost every location we've climbed in - not cleaning up dog poop, dog aggression, stealing food (dangerous for people and dog), etc. Worst example we saw was in Vegas, climbing at Fringe Crag in Calico Basin. The 1st climbs you encounter are a series of 5.6 slabs leading up to a few of the better climbs. We saw a golden retriever, left at the base and unleashed, try to follow her owners up the 5.6 slab. A fall would've left the pup seriously injured/dead. Dog actually reached the inexperienced follower! We had to coach the follower on how to rig a lower for the dog who we then proceeded to anchor to the ground.

Mike Lofgren wrote: Wife and I bring our well behaved dog to our local single-pitch sport climbing area all the time. We choose to keep her leashed out of respect for fellow climbers and it's easier that way. There's always one of us on the ground w/her. Dog minds her own business and usually gets fussed over 1-2X/day by groups of college kids. I'm sure some people are bothered by the mere presence of our dog, but I'm bothered by the mere presence of some people. Guess that's tolerance.

We have seen examples of problematic and dangerous dog behavior at almost every location we've climbed in - not cleaning up dog poop, dog aggression, stealing food (dangerous for people and dog), etc. Worst example we saw was in Vegas, climbing at Fringe Crag in Calico Basin. The 1st climbs you encounter are a series of 5.6 slabs leading up to a few of the better climbs. We saw a golden retriever, left at the base and unleashed, try to follow her owners up the 5.6 slab. A fall would've left the pup seriously injured/dead. Dog actually reached the inexperienced follower! We had to coach the follower on how to rig a lower for the dog who we then proceeded to anchor to the ground.

This is such a perfect example of "but my dog" that it must be trolling. 

Scotty D wrote:

This is such a perfect example of "but my dog" that it must be trolling. 

I assure you, it's not. We A) have trained our dog B) don't place our dog in a position to behave badly and C) physically control our dog while climbing by keep her leashed. If a fellow climber has a problem with the mere presence of my dog being on public lands, they can leave. If my dog was behaving in a way that was problematic or obtrusive to other climbers, I would leave the crag of my own accord. Good number of climbers are anit-dog, and in some cases, that makes sense.

Seen a large pit bull type dog take the plunge off of the top of Barn Bluff to land among climbers.

Apparently the brain trust at the top was throwing rocks, and the dog tried to fetch...we were screaming about the rocks pelting us, not nice things either. I wish the fucking redneck who "owned" the dog would have thrown himself off instead. 

Mike Lofgren wrote:

I assure you, it's not. We A) have trained our dog B) don't place our dog in a position to behave badly and C) physically control our dog while climbing by keep her leashed. If a fellow climber has a problem with the mere presence of my dog being on public lands, they can leave. If my dog was behaving in a way that was problematic or obtrusive to other climbers, I would leave the crag of my own accord. Good number of climbers are anit-dog, and in some cases, that makes sense.

Fair enough and well defended. My mistake. 

Mike Lofgren wrote:

I assure you, it's not. We A) have trained our dog B) don't place our dog in a position to behave badly and C) physically control our dog while climbing by keep her leashed. If a fellow climber has a problem with the mere presence of my dog being on public lands, they can leave. If my dog was behaving in a way that was problematic or obtrusive to other climbers, I would leave the crag of my own accord. Good number of climbers are anit-dog, and in some cases, that makes sense.

And do you clean up its poop?

Keith Wood wrote:

And do you clean up its poop?

Of course. Goes without saying. 

Would be great if most humans were as good about packing out or burying their human poop as most dog owners were about their dogs poop.

Keith Wood wrote:

And do you clean up its poop?

he listed that as one of the things that irresponsible owner's don't do. Use your brain

Do not bring your dog to the crag.

I too have not wanted to be rude and let friend's bring theirs. It is never a good idea.

BTW, I don't just like dogs, I love dogs! I am a dog nut. Love training dogs to be the best trained, best lover dogs going... dogs that will reassure the most fragile and frightened human or animal that everything is A okay. But, still, I have never brought a dog to the crag.

I know this thread and my post will not help though. People are going to be irresponsible and rude and bring their dogs to the crag anyway. 

several times I have seen kids throwing sticks or balls off cliffs at swimming holes. heck twice I have had to jump a cliff I was scared to jump because I was young, stupid and not going to be out done by a dog...   so yes they will chase something off a cliff..  Mostly they are just freaked out because their human is up on the cliff and they are not.   Having a dog is like having 5 year old with the ability to kill someone that never grows up.  You are responsible for its well being 24 /7.   You always need to know that your dog has a good place to poop, that your dog is safe from cars, theft, terrain, heat, cold (depending on breed)  and  that your dog is not going to be causing trouble by chasing  wild life, someone's pets, livestock or children or adults.   Now with the pandemic you also have to be aware that you can't  let your dog into other peoples 6ft personal space. 

scotty, so you leave your dog un attended tied to a tree  while you are up on the cliff all day... we should do that to you so you can see how much fun that is... 

Joe Hunt wrote: Do not bring your dog to the crag.

I too have not wanted to be rude and let friend's bring theirs. It is never a good idea.

BTW, I don't just like dogs, I love dogs! I am a dog nut. Love training dogs to be the best trained, best lover dogs going... dogs that will reassure the most fragile and frightened human or animal that everything is A okay. But, still, I have never brought a dog to the crag.

I know this thread and my post will not help though. People are going to be irresponsible and rude and bring their dogs to the crag anyway. 

I'm with you.  I love dogs.  My favorite animal by far.  I have two.  I have the same opinion, but the problem is as it has always been.  I don't think, in the majority of cases, that dog owners have trained their dogs to interact correctly at the crag- or at all in many cases.  I have never brought my dogs to the crag, even though I lean towards them being well-behaved because they're well-trained.  I simply don't know how they would behave until they're in that situation.  I don't get many chances to get outside.  Once a month if I'm lucky, sometimes twice a month in the fall, and I want to maximize my time and minimize stressors or potential stressors when I'm out.  So, no dogs, no kids, but that's my decision and I don't expect everyone to adopt my policy.  My dogs either get boarded (where they live better than they do at home) or they stay with friends/family when I'm on a trip.  I have been bitten once, attacked a few times (all at crags and nowhere else), and I know dogs, so I know how to remain calm and not exacerbate a situation.  It truly is the owner, not the dog.

But to make a command like "Do not bring your dog to the crag" is a waste of time.  First, you have no way to enforce that, only the entity that manages the land does.  Second, there are guys like Mike out there that do everything right, and they shouldn't be punished because the vast majority of dog owners aren't as diligent and simply don't give a shit (or pick it up).  That would be like saying no one could travel with their cell phones just because some people text and drive.  That's not the way things work, it's unenforceable and a ridiculous notion.  

So yes, some (by some, I mean well over 90% in my experience) people are going to be rude and irresponsible, but some people are capable of being considerate and responsible, and just because they bring a dog doesn't automatically qualify them as rude and irresponsible- though I do think that most dogs that are at the crag don't qualify as "good crag dogs"- along with their owners not being good, responsible owners.  Blanket rules don't really work, and nuance and exception should be considered in every scenario but the most dire.  Dogs at the crag isn't a dire scenario unless a dog attacks and kills someone.  Thankfully, to my knowledge, that hasn't occurred.

Mike Lofgren wrote:

I assure you, it's not. We A) have trained our dog B) don't place our dog in a position to behave badly and C) physically control our dog while climbing by keep her leashed. If a fellow climber has a problem with the mere presence of my dog being on public lands, they can leave. If my dog was behaving in a way that was problematic or obtrusive to other climbers, I would leave the crag of my own accord. Good number of climbers are anit-dog, and in some cases, that makes sense.

This is 100% a "but not my dog" situation.... Even if your dog is as great as you say, you are encouraging other idiots to also bring their dogs, who think their dogs are "physically controlled and well-behaved." Leave the dog at home brah

I don’t know, guys, I think this is the thread that solves it. Got a feeling!

Nick Goldsmith wrote: scotty, so you leave your dog un attended tied to a tree  while you are up on the cliff all day... we should do that to you so you can see how much fun that is... 

What the hell are you talking about? 

I don't have a dog.

Nowhere in this thread have I insinuated that people should tie their dogs to a tree and go to the crag all day. 

"Leave your dog at home!"

"I'm going climbing during an unprecidented global pandemic and you can't stop me!"

Why do I get the feeling these come from the same folks.

OP, I'm not dissin you. Glad you got out and thanks for putting in the hard work of developing. I watched my older dog take a 40' tumble. It was terrifying. I am very sorry that happened.

Comparing dogs to children has got to be one of the stupidest things I have ever heard.