PAS?

Sometimes I use a couple of regular length runners with a strop bend for a rappel extension with tether rather than a double runner with a knot. Easier to untie and a bit stronger in some methods of connection. This photo is using two 8mm dynamic prusik cords. It would be girth hitched to the harness. The HMS is for the rappel device the d for clipping to the anchor.

Dan Daugherty wrote:

Don't forget getting struck by a meteor as it's as likely to happen as getting inverted on a rappel under normal use. All the other cases you mention are gross negligence by the user and it's doubtful they would be able to set up the autoblock properly if they can't attach their belay device properly, for example. 

Inverting is very likely if you are knocked out.

And yes, the other situations are potentially fatal mistakes but easily safeguarded against by putting a third hand on the belay loop.

Experienced climbers make mistakes not infrequently.

As mentioned I do use 12" of extension when using an autolock on a leg loop. Even inverted I doubt the autoblock could be close enough for the belay device to interfere with it. I'll likely check it out at some point.

I do not consider the third hand a backup to the belay device. I consider the belay device, it's locking biner, the rope, harness, all single item, non-backed up gear, whether used for belaying or rappelling and mistakes are safeguarded against by always double checking. I consider the third hand a backup to my brake hand (if I got knocked out it should stop my descent) and also for convenience to auto-stop the rappel when desired. As I mentioned to each his own and I'm not going to begrudge people for doing it differently. I've climbed for many years and have never had a partner or myself proceed with: not finish tying into the rope, not double back their harness buckle if needed, clipping into a gear loop or miss clipping a strand of the rope, thread a gri-gri wrong, etc. because we always double check, I'd consider that more important than having a backup. If I'm alone (e.g. partner raps off first) I double check myself (after getting everything ready I mentally think double check and check everything before unhooking my tether).

Glowering wrote: As mentioned I do use 12" of extension when using an autolock on a leg loop. Even inverted I doubt the autoblock could be close enough for the belay device to interfere with it. I'll likely check it out at some point.

If the tether (be it a PAS or whatever your device is extended on) and the autoblock are both on your belay loop (this being the typical e.g. AMGA-recommended set-up), then body position has no effect on the likelihood of interference. Properly set up, they will not interfere. It's only when the autoblock is on the leg loop and/or the device is not extended that interference becomes a possibility.

A PAS is a sling-like thing with a bunch of intermediate full strength clip in points. You can replace it with a sling with a knot, creating an intermediate clip point, or a Petzl adjust, creating an adjustable intermediate clip point.

Use whatever you like, buy a PAS if you feel like it. I don't think there's much in the choice.

I would guess the reason PAS things generate so many words on the Internet is they cost more money. On that topic I notice a Petzl Adjust is almost twice the price on MEC of a PAS and 15x the price of a 60cm nylon runner.

Be it a sling, PAS, or chain of quickdraws, just don't fall on static stuff. Know the limitations of your gear.

I bought a Metolius PAS but soon gave it to a friend because I don't like clutter.
If I have to rap, I'll girth a double length nylon sling or rabbit runner, both of which which I always have on me. That being said, I have a Petzl connect that's great for installing fixed gear.

I really dig my Petzl Connect Adjust! The easy adjustment and security can't be undersold--it's a great piece of kit IMO. Necessary? Maybe not. Functional? Definitely.

I can understand the argument of getting a PAS stuck while trying to pull cams off of your harness loops, but I have had good success avoiding this by simply making sure the adjust is under the cams and draws and not over them or tangled within.

I don't really understand PAS hate. It's a matter of ounces to have a PAS on you, and having a dedicated PAS on your harness will mean that you'll never miscalculate and forget to bring enough gear to anchor in with.

Climbers are weird, man. We are willing to take certain risks and mitigate some of those risks, but we are harder pressed to mitigate others.  

Garrett S wrote: I really dig my Petzl Connect Adjust! The easy adjustment and security can't be undersold--it's a great piece of kit IMO. Necessary? Maybe not. Functional? Definitely.

I can understand the argument of getting a PAS stuck while trying to pull cams off of your harness loops, but I have had good success avoiding this by simply making sure the adjust is under the cams and draws and not over them or tangled within.

I don't really understand PAS hate. It's a matter of ounces to have a PAS on you, and having a dedicated PAS on your harness will mean that you'll never miscalculate and forget to bring enough gear to anchor in with.

Climbers are weird, man. We are willing to take certain risks and mitigate some of those risks, but we are harder pressed to mitigate others.  

IDk. I dont care for them and i feel like you know that Gary. Clove hitch is fine for almost everything, and when rapping I've never had an issue with either a clove or sling. 

I know you love your connect, and I've never used it, and id like to next time we go out. But idk clove is easier to me, can adjust farther, and is quicker imo. Plus its free. 

Dan Daugherty wrote:

I'm genuinely interested in reading accident reports on folks who have been knocked unconscious while rappelling and a third hand would actually help.

FWIW, I use a third hand when I rap because it adds at most 30 seconds to do. I take issue with telling folks to do something due to some contrived event to prove the point.

I've been hit in the head by small rockfall while rapping in the mountains, not hurt.  I witnessed a friend take a serious hit from falling ice on an alpine climb while rappelling off the N pillar of Fitzroy and, while he maintained control of the rope he had a short term memory loss and mildly altered LOC afterwards. Found one in a thirty second Google search as well: #12 on https://dontdierappelling.com/24-preventable-rappel-accidents/

The situation is unlikely but not contrived.  And as I mentioned (and you obviously understand) just one of many reasons to extend your rappel device and use a third hand.  

Philip Magistro wrote:

Ok.  I think you have been mistaking the reason for a third hand backup.  The primary purpose is to prevent an uncontrolled fall if you lose control of the brake for any reason (hand gets too hot, seizure, rockfall, stung by swarm of wasps, you name it).

It has the corollary benefit of being a second point of attachment if you make an error in the other.  For example, if you are preparing to rap and you put an autoblock on your belay loop first, then thread the device.  If you were to only clip one strand with the device, or accidentally clip it to a gear loop (both situations that I have witnessed), the third hand has potential to save you taking a groundfall.

Dude:  I've been climbing a long time. I know what it is for and am willing to forgo it in most instances. There are times when I will use an autoblock, most times I don't. Personal choice I guess.

I remember rgold had a post some time ago listing the many uses of a PAS. He listed some things many of us might not have thought of. Even with my reasonable amount of experience (but not in higher grades, if that matters) I found it enlightening. Maybe he could cut and paste it here?

I tested out an autoblock on a leg loop with a 12" extension. There is NO way the autoblock is reaching the belay/rappel device to cause a problem with my setup, even if inverted and contorting my body as much as possible to try to make it reach it. Caveats: I use a standard cord sling for a prusik loop, tested with a double rope rappel, I girth hitch the loop around my leg loop and clip into the other end with a biner on my lep loop (not both ends of the loop to the biner).

To correct my earlier statement: using 12" of extension off the belay loop puts the belay device right in front of my face. When weighting the rope it's well clear of my face though. And it's in a perfect place to keep an eye on it and reach it if needed (e.g. if I wanted to put it in guide mode to ascend the rope).

As Buck mentions often people don't even use a third hand. I think of it like a helmet or seat belt. Hopefully you never need it, but it's insurance. For the record I almost always use a third hand, helmet, and seat belt, and I want them to be as convenient as possible.

Lots of opinions, I'll add mine.

I ditched the PAS after about 3 years of trad climbing (10+ years ago) because it: 
a) junked up my harness
b) I found I could do the same thing with just a sling or (gasp) the climbing rope I already had attached to my harness. I found it just wasn't worth the expense, weight, and real estate on my waist while climbing, even 20-pitch routes.

I get when cleaning anchors you can't easily use the rope, which is where a sling/locker combo comes in. Lighter, easier, less junk hanging from your waist.

That said, when hanging on a rope/anchor to do some photography/filming I do use the petzl adjust - but that's all about it comes out for.

Additional question: clove hitch homies, if youre doing a multi, what do you use to extend rappels and clip into rappel anchors?

Luke Marcoon wrote: Additional question: clove hitch homies, if youre doing a multi, what do you use to extend rappels and clip into rappel anchors?

I convert an alpine draw and take the sling, girth hitch it to my tie in points, and use that.

To extend the rappel device a 24”’sling in a basket configuration. This is for an autoblock on my leg loop. I would probably girth if autoblock is on the belay loop.

To tether into belay anchors a 48” sling (maybe two if there’s no chains and going directly into the hangers).

Glowering wrote:...Caveats: I use a standard cord sling for a prusik loop, tested with a double rope rappel, I girth hitch the loop around my leg loop and clip into the other end with a biner on my lep loop (not both ends of the loop to the biner).

Why not just clip both to the biner? 

p zoobs wrote:

Why not just clip both to the biner? 

It lives on my leg loop so it stays out of the way better that way (I leave it there because it saves a step, and it's part of my self rescue kit if needed, always easily available). I give it 4 or 5 twists then clip the free end into the biner when I'm not using it to stow it. 

It also seems to work really well that way, locking up the rope completely, but easy to release. I experimented with it many years ago when I first started using it and remember it seemed to work the best that way.

Luke Marcoon wrote: Additional question: clove hitch homies, if youre doing a multi, what do you use to extend rappels and clip into rappel anchors?

When multi-pitch trad climbing I use a clove for anchoring almost exclusively.  Aside from the rack and draws I carry five lockers, a plaquette style belay device, prussik cord, cordalette and 48" sling.  When prepping to rappel I use either the cordalette or 48" sling (whichever isn't in the anchor) to make an extension with a tail for clipping anchors.  Many ways to do so; I generally girth it to my hard points then tie a bight knot in the middle, but a number of methods work fine.

Bought one when I first started climbing outside. Used it until I got into trad. Once you have a bunch of cams hanging off you, a loopy sling all bunched up is terribly annoying and a waste of valuable space. I learned more efficient methods of attaching to anchors. Now it's a wadded up piece of fabric at the bottom of my gear bin. Don't use it sport climbing, don't use it trad climbing, don't use it multi-pitch.

TLDR; they're dumb. use a draw for cleaning, clove for anchors, sling for raps.