PAS?

I must start out by saying that I am a beginner, and welcome any and all (i think  ) input.  It seems that the majority of experienced climbers do not like the PAS.  Is it just because they are unnecessary?  Or are there other reasons?  I can see some benefits (extending rappel device, clipping into two points quickly) which i understand can be accomplished in other ways.  Anyway, just trying to learn as much as I can while stuck at home. 
Thanks

I learned with a PAS, then learned how to go without and thought it was brilliant to be minimal, then re-learned how to use one efficiently and now I carry it most of the time when multi-pitch climbing. I'm sure that will change at some point. Try it many ways, see what you like.

Dude: I have been climbing a long time. I have two PAS. I use them all the time while sport climbing, they work good for that. Many places you will have to anchor yourself and untie to get lowered, and a PAS allows you to secure yourself easily while you thread the rope.

Trad climbing they aren't as useful, since you will already have a rope tied to you that you aren't going to untie, and can just clove hitch to the anchor.  I skip the PAS for trad. 

A PAS is a useful tool, but don't run it between your legs and clip it to the back of your harness. You will have style points deducted and be the subject of ridicule.

Although some people will tell you that you can just use a sling, the PAS has more adjustability. You can get by without one, but give it a try. I like the Sterling Chain Reactor.

FrankPS wrote: A PAS is a useful tool, but don't run it between your legs and clip it to the back of your harness. You will have style points deducted and be the subject of ridicule.

Haha..yeah, i've seen this mentioned in other threads.  Guess I still don't see why it is a bad thing, but I will trust better judgement:)  And i'd hate to be ridiculed     Maybe i need to learn the "cool" way to do things as well.

How would you recommend attaching?  

Biggest downside in my opinion? Low-stretch, non-dynamic! Worst case almost doubles your forces on the anchor (vs dynamic rope) if you whip onto it! That said, some people smarter than me dig 'em and just use them knowing the downsides. No worries, see if you like it. The Petzl Connect and CAMP Swing marry the two ideas (dynamic rope in a dedicated tether), so I'd recommend either one of those if you're into 'em. Stay safe, dude!

Brad Huffman wrote:

Haha..yeah, i've seen this mentioned in other threads.  Guess I still don't see why it is a bad thing, but I will trust better judgement:)  And i'd hate to be ridiculed    Already feel intimidated around experienced climbers for some reason.  Maybe this is why..lol   Maybe i need to learn the cool way to do things as well.

How would you recommend attaching?  

Girth hitch it through your tie--in points, clip it to a gear loop, then tuck in the excess through a leg loop. Or, girth hitch it through your tie--in points, then clip the end and the middle loop of the PAS to a gear loop. The PAS' primary usefulness, for me, is as a rap sling on multipitch. 

I never use it as a substitute for an anchor, so on the way up a multipitch, it stays wadded up on a gear loop and isn't taken off until I'm ready to rappel.

You can use the PAS for building an anchor, if you want, at a two-bolt anchor (just as you would use a double-length runner).

I don't know if I'm "experienced", but I like mine, for trad and sport.  It seems less fiddly than the alternatives, especially extending rappels since one device can extend your rap device and clip the anchor at the same time.  And, soft things like cord and a PAS weigh barely anything, so why not?

You do you, just don't do anything dangerous/stupid or leave traces.  Don't fall on your PAS (or anything static) either, that will generate crazy high forces and break you or the hardware.

Franco is right on all counts.  

Here's why most experienced climbers hate the PAS:  Usually when something idiotic happens at a crag, it's done by someone using a PAS.  Not BECAUSE of the PAS mind you, but the type of people that go out and spend 30+ dollars on something a single nylon sling can do usually aren't the most experienced.  So there's that part of it.  

To expound on what Franco said, a PAS is completely unnecessary.  Climbers should be self sufficient and dedicated pieces of gear that exist only for one purpose or two at most are bad ideas.  I'm not super old school, but I cringe when I see someone try to pull a cam off their gear loop and it gets stuck in a PAS.  I also cringe when I see someone with two separate 4' slings girth hitched into their tie-in points just to clean sport routes.  

Here's the kicker though, I own a PAS.  I wear it sometimes when I'm doing multi-pitch routes because as you say Brad, it is handy to be able to clip into an anchor and be able to rig your rappel.  Can that be accomplished with one nylon sling with a knot in it?  Sure.  Should it be?  Debatable, and depends on whether or not you like knotting and unknotting slings.  To me, if you knot a sling and you wear that as your default anchor attachment/rappel extension, then you're probably not going to use it for much else.  I personally wouldn't use a knotted sling for extending anything, though it's probably fine.  So, if that's the case, then you have yet another single-use piece of gear dedicated for a task.  Then the only difference between that and the ole gumby loop thingy is that one is about 3 or 4 times the cost of the other.  

As far as cleaning sport routes, well, if you can't figure out how to use a quickdraw and one extra locker (instead of attaching two giant loops of nylon or dyneema to your harness that can get caught on shit, or using a PAS) to lower off and clean, then here's a link: SKIP TO 3:22 to see cleaning with just locker and draw.

It's good to learn how to use gear that you already likely have on you- slings, draws, locking biners, etc. to do things that otherwise the gear manufacturers tell you is the latest greatest thing that you MUST have.  Otherwise you end up with a bunch of shit you don't need dangling off you and looking like a permagumby.  That doesn't bother some people, and that's fine.  If I see someone adorned in a PAS, girth hitched cleaning slings, chalk bag on a carabiner hanging off the gear loop, etc. I try to avoid them.  Just about every jacked up thing I've seen outside has been from someone that has one, two, or all three of those.  

Yeah yeah, I'm an elitist dick.  I can't climb 5.14 (or even 5.13, for that matter) and I should just keep my weak mouth shut until I'm strong enough to have an opinion.  But I'm pretty much saying what most experienced climbers think.  I get made fun of when I break out the ole PAS for easy multi-pitch, and rightly so.  

Franco has solid advice.  Learn these "dedicated" pieces of gear and their usage.  Then figure out the gear you already have that can accomplish the same task, and you'll be more versatile and won't have to spend the extra $$ to get "specialty" pieces of gear that accomplish that same task.  

Or just buy all the stuff and don't give a shit what dicks like me think when we see you at the crag.   

Skip the PAS and get a Camp Swing or Petzl Adjust. Throw it in your multipitch pack and use it when rapping. It is a great extension and makes things easier. 

I'm not sure I'd agree that the majority of experienced climbers never use a PAS.  For me, it depends on the on the route.   For trad. or multi-pitch sport climbing I use a Petzl Connect if there are hanging belays or if the route requires rappelling.  No hanging belays and a walk off, just use the rope to tie in.  For single pitch sport climbing if the route has mussy hook anchors, no PAS.  But if the anchor has to be cleaned, then a PAS. 

FrankPS wrote: A PAS is a useful tool, but don't run it between your legs and clip it to the back of your harness. You will have style points deducted and be the subject of ridicule.

Yet in the words of the great Chris Kalous: "..putting it through your legs, thong-style, is in many ways, if you're going to use a daisy chain, the best way to store it, practically."

don'tchuffonme wrote: Franco is right on all counts.  

Here's why most experienced climbers hate the PAS:  Usually when something idiotic happens at a crag, it's done by someone using a PAS.  Not BECAUSE of the PAS mind you, but the type of people that go out and spend 30+ dollars on something a single nylon sling can do usually aren't the most experienced.  So there's that part of it.  

To expound on what Franco said, a PAS is completely unnecessary.  Climbers should be self sufficient and dedicated pieces of gear that exist only for one purpose or two at most are bad ideas.  I'm not super old school, but I cringe when I see someone try to pull a cam off their gear loop and it gets stuck in a PAS.  I also cringe when I see someone with two separate 4' slings girth hitched into their tie-in points just to clean sport routes.  

Here's the kicker though, I own a PAS.  I wear it sometimes when I'm doing multi-pitch routes because as you say Brad, it is handy to be able to clip into an anchor and be able to rig your rappel.  Can that be accomplished with one nylon sling with a knot in it?  Sure.  Should it be?  Debatable, and depends on whether or not you like knotting and unknotting slings.  To me, if you knot a sling and you wear that as your default anchor attachment/rappel extension, then you're probably not going to use it for much else.  I personally wouldn't use a knotted sling for extending anything, though it's probably fine.  So, if that's the case, then you have yet another single-use piece of gear dedicated for a task.  Then the only difference between that and the ole gumby loop thingy is that one is about 3 or 4 times the cost of the other.  

As far as cleaning sport routes, well, if you can't figure out how to use a quickdraw and one extra locker (instead of attaching two giant loops of nylon or dyneema to your harness that can get caught on shit, or using a PAS) to lower off and clean, then here's a link: SKIP TO 3:22 to see cleaning with just locker and draw.

It's good to learn how to use gear that you already likely have on you- slings, draws, locking biners, etc. to do things that otherwise the gear manufacturers tell you is the latest greatest thing that you MUST have.  Otherwise you end up with a bunch of shit you don't need dangling off you and looking like a permagumby.  That doesn't bother some people, and that's fine.  If I see someone adorned in a PAS, girth hitched cleaning slings, chalk bag on a carabiner hanging off the gear loop, etc. I try to avoid them.  Just about every jacked up thing I've seen outside has been from someone that has one, two, or all three of those.  

Yeah yeah, I'm an elitist dick.  I can't climb 5.14 (or even 5.13, for that matter) and I should just keep my weak mouth shut until I'm strong enough to have an opinion.  But I'm pretty much saying what most experienced climbers think.  I get made fun of when I break out the ole PAS for easy multi-pitch, and rightly so.  

Franco has solid advice.  Learn these "dedicated" pieces of gear and their usage.  Then figure out the gear you already have that can accomplish the same task, and you'll be more versatile and won't have to spend the extra $$ to get "specialty" pieces of gear that accomplish that same task.  

Or just buy all the stuff and don't give a shit what dicks like me think when we see you at the crag.   

Thanks for the tips/suggestions!  Also, thanks for the link.  That is a great, efficient way to clean an anchor!!  I totally understand learning to use the gear that one would typically always have and not rely on specialty pieces.  As a beginner, i think it is easy to get caught up in the latest/"greatest" thing that are portrayed as the "easy" way to go.  I appreciate the advice of those that are way more experienced than I, regardless if it comes across as being a dick to some.  I don't see it that way.  I am open to any criticism if I am doing something unnecessary or unsafe, as I don't want to harm myself or anyone else that I am with (egos included:)).  So far my experience with folks that I have run into out at a crag is that they are more than willing to help..maybe i've been lucky and haven't run into any jerks..who knows.    

Piece A Shit

Big Dick Johnson wrote:

PAS do actually serve an important function for beginners. 

Buy 2, keep them clipped perpetually to your harness so that we all know your level of belay experience. 

haha..maybe i can have them attached with a welded ring.

Jcastleberry wrote: Piece A Shit

I actually expected more of this!    

Once I learned to clean a sport anchor with a draw and locker (AAC lower) I never went back. Whether or not you choose to get a PAS, I recommend you learn this method.

Jay Dee wrote: Skip the PAS and get a Camp Swing or Petzl Adjust. Throw it in your multipitch pack and use it when rapping. It is a great extension and makes things easier. 

Great..and now I see another piece of gear that would be useful...and down the rabbit hole I go.  Would definitely consider one of these if I hadn't already bought a PAS.  Looks pretty slick!

Shane Rosanbalm wrote: Once I learned to clean a sport anchor with a draw and locker (AAC lower) I never went back. Whether or not you choose to get a PAS, I recommend you learn this method.

Agreed!  This is the first of saw of this method and will definitely learn it!

Jay Dee wrote: Skip the PAS and get a Camp Swing or Petzl Adjust. Throw it in your multipitch pack and use it when rapping. It is a great extension and makes things easier. 

This is just replacing one dedicated piece of unnecessary gear for another.  I understand the utility of it, I've just never used one or needed one.  Maybe I'm just getting old, but this just seems like one extra thing to get in the way, forget, or keep up with.

The Camp Swing or Petzl Adjust will allow you to adjust your length better as there are no preset lengths as you have in a PAS.  They just take a little longer to get use to in an efficient way.  These are mostly used in sport climbing.  People also, as stated, will use quick-draws, slings or a daisy chain.  Quick draws place you really too close to the anchors to feel comfortable, slings require you to tie a knot to adjust for length and the daisy chain is the lease safe and should be used for for aid climbing only.

That said, it is best to have more than one tool on your belt, so do learn the clove hitch and how to use it properly as it works like a swing or adjust, with even more length options for those huge ledges on trad routes.

Lastly, don't give any thoughts to what people say about looking strange or noobish - safety and fun is what you should shoot for and with experience, you will find what fits best for you.