Camp Photons

and this is yet another plus for the Dyon... To my recollection, the Chimera has a VERY wide nose, which scrunches everything on the harness, ugh. I use Dyon's exclusively for racking biners, as well as the bolt/gear side of all my alpine draws (I think the weight penalty is worth having the Alpha Sport for the rope end of alpine draws). I seem to never see Chimera for less than $10/ea, whereas the Dyon can typically be found for about $8-$8.50/ea, which made a substantial difference when I bought  ~100 of them.
Final point for the Dyon, there is NO biner that snags less than a dyon, period.

Christian Hesch wrote: and this is yet another plus for the Dyon... To my recollection, the Chimera has a VERY wide nose, which scrunches everything on the harness, ugh. I use Dyon's exclusively for racking biners, as well as the bolt/gear side of all my alpine draws (I think the weight penalty is worth having the Alpha Sport for the rope end of alpine draws). I seem to never see Chimera for less than $10/ea, whereas the Dyon can typically be found for about $8-$8.50/ea, which made a substantial difference when I bought  ~100 of them.
Final point for the Dyon, there is NO biner that snags less than a dyon, period.

Totally agree with the Dyon nose design being both innovative and effective. I think I have 25 or so.  I do like the Chimera/Phantom size for alpine draws.  If I'm on a route requiring 10-12 draws, I am probably wearing a gear sling for my nuts/cams, with all of my harness gear loops open for draws, I don't really worry about the width of the biner...but I did measure these with a caliper at the widest part of the nose that would have to go through a wire or bolt, not the rope bearing surface.

Dyon:  5.5mm

Hotwire:  9mm

Chimera:  12mm

Photon:  8.5mm

Phantom:  6mm

Spirit:  7mm

The Spirit has a very thin nose, but widens out quickly for a nice radius for the rope to ride on. 

just another 'I use to use photons, but have now mostly switched to dyons and love it' user.
Only con is the photons are cheaper I guess, but before I discovered the dyons, photons were my top choice.
Edit: I've also treid heiums, cause a friend raved, but i'm not a big fan: Not enough colors, 2 of mine got sticky gates now, often find the nose doesn't fit through anchor chains, and they take up noticebly more space on the gear loop...
EditEdit: Also, I've come across some anchors before in which I would fir nothing but a photon. Cray.
EditEditEidt: Ranting about my irrelevant gear preferences is nice, haven't got to do that with any friends in a number of weeks....

I use the Photons on the rope side of my alpines and have loved them so far. I've put roughly 200 pitches and plenty of whips on them; no issues. 

I prefer snagless biners for racking and mostly use Hoodwires, but I also have some Heliums, Anges and Dyons. Heliums are probably my favorite but they don't come in enough colors and are super pricey. 

I extend almost every placement but after making a few desperate direct clips in the Creek, I wouldn't feel confident in such skinny racking biner. Noticing how the biner would have been levered against the crack I was super happy to have a thicker Hoodwire there.

The Photons are so long and thin it wouldn't take much to snap them. Obviously no biner is intended to be levered but I think the Photons are particularly weak in this regard. And that's the last thing I want to have in my mind as I'm pulling some desperate moves over them. 

Buck Rio wrote:

I actually find the reverse true...I can't stand a notched biner for racking. Nothing worse than being all scrunched up under a roof and having a racking biner get snagged on my gear loops. 

The number one reason for notchless biner IMO is to prevent a nose snag on a bolt or a wire and then getting fallen on.

Buck- so interesting- I always thought I'd find notched racking 'biners annoying too, but until very recently, never once had one snag on me- under a roof, or otherwise!

Lately I've been trying to rack gates-out (for harambe!), and experienced my first ever snag on a racking 'biner this way (caught my harness). I love how gates-out feels on the ground, but when I'm pumped and fumbling for gear, it always ends up more arduous for me. Guess I'm just a 'gates-in' kinda guy since I learned that way and I'll just have to except the chiding from my friends...

And agreed about the number one reason for notchless. For bolts, I always carry a few quickdraws and for nuts/hexes, I just make extra sure it's clipped properly.

Buck Rio wrote:

Totally agree with the Dyon nose design being both innovative and effective. I think I have 25 or so.  I do like the Chimera/Phantom size for alpine draws.  If I'm on a route requiring 10-12 draws, I am probably wearing a gear sling for my nuts/cams, with all of my harness gear loops open for draws, I don't really worry about the width of the biner...but I did measure these with a caliper at the widest part of the nose that would have to go through a wire or bolt, not the rope bearing surface.

Dyon:  5.5mm

Hotwire:  9mm

Chimera:  12mm

Photon:  8.5mm

Phantom:  6mm

Spirit:  7mm

The Spirit has a very thin nose, but widens out quickly for a nice radius for the rope to ride on. 

This is so helpful when visualizing/comparing! Do you have a WC Helium you could measure too? 

Gosh Glance wrote:

This is so helpful when visualizing/comparing! Do you have a WC Helium you could measure too? 

https://blacksheepadventuresports.com/2017/09/13/comparison-review-lightweight-snag-free-carabiners/

They put some measurements and photos in that article/review and I don't want to just link photos - they deserve the website hits for the work.

Christian Hesch wrote: and this is yet another plus for the Dyon... To my recollection, the Chimera has a VERY wide nose, which scrunches everything on the harness, ugh. I use Dyon's exclusively for racking biners, as well as the bolt/gear side of all my alpine draws (I think the weight penalty is worth having the Alpha Sport for the rope end of alpine draws). I seem to never see Chimera for less than $10/ea, whereas the Dyon can typically be found for about $8-$8.50/ea, which made a substantial difference when I bought  ~100 of them.
Final point for the Dyon, there is NO biner that snags less than a dyon, period.

Christian- agreed, Chimera seems wide, but I always keep alpine draws racked on my back loop by themselves and can comfortably fit at least 6 on each side, plus one quickdraw each (14 total alpine+sport draws)- usually more than enough. Plus I have my belay device and a locker for tethering on the back-right and my anchor sling/cordalette on the back-left, so that's 9 total biners on each back loop.

9 'biners isn't horribly cramped, but that's with Neutrinos... I wonder if switching to Chimeras would make it a problem, and perhaps I should consider the Heliums? I don't like the way the DMM Trad Alpha's kinked spine feels in your hand and I don't love the Dyons either. The only problem with Heliums is they don't come in a non-racking color, which is why I'm leaning towards gunmetal colored Chimeras, but they're fucking $15 each (!!!) and I'd need like 34 of them... ouch!

Let me ask you this (others please weigh in as well): how strongly do you feel about having a dedicated rope-end 'biner on your alpine draws and why?
- Do you do it to save weight? I.e. the rope-end has a larger rope basket and the cam sling side is smaller and lighter?
- Do you do it to save money? I.e. only half your alpine draw 'biners are the obscenely expensive snagless type?
- Do you do it so that only one side gets clipped into hangers and rope never touches the (potentially sharpened) side?
 
Personally, I feel like it'd be nice to know what side has been clipped into bolts for peace of mind... right now I use two identical black neutrinos and I never know which one could have sharp spots that might abrade my rope- perhaps an oversight on my part when I first started.

Matt N wrote:

https://blacksheepadventuresports.com/2017/09/13/comparison-review-lightweight-snag-free-carabiners/

They put some measurements and photos in that article/review and I don't want to just link photos - they deserve the website hits for the work.

I literally have this bookmarked, didn't realize it had measurements! I just saw the weight in the table and the helpful pictures. Thanks dude!

Gosh Glance wrote:

This is so helpful when visualizing/comparing! Do you have a WC Helium you could measure too? 

Sorry Dude, for some reason the MN is a wasteland for WC gear.  

I do not clip a lot of bolts, but when I do I use the non-anodized biner, and the anodized one gets the rope. Just my OCD kicking in, but I guess there isn't any harm in it. Same for gear, the anodized one gets the rope. 

Gosh Glance wrote: Let me ask you this (others please weigh in as well): how strongly do you feel about having a dedicated rope-end 'biner on your alpine draws and why?

I scored a deal on Heliums years ago and got 20 for alpine draws, 10 red, 10 silver. Red for rope.
I don't even take many falls sport climbing, let alone trad, but I still like the different 'biners (and I'm not really OCD).
I could shave weight going with some other options, but the Heliums clip so damn nice. They'll also last a really long time, so the added cost wasn't much really.

I had OZ hoodwire racking biners on my cams for a while, then when I updated my rack with Totems and new WC Friends, I used DMM Alpha Trad and Heliums. Each time I unclipped a BD cam with OZ off my harness, there was this little tinge of something not as nice - more so when I'd clip the rope direct to one, also. What sealed the deal is the weaker rating of the OZ. I ended up replacing the few remaining OZs I had with Chimeras.

Its personal preference, big time. I climb for fun. Plenty of people climb harder on mis-matched everything or "old" gear. I need all the help I can get when pumped/gripped and grabbing for a piece!
I've upgraded my rack throughout the years and after finding deals and reselling, the cost outlay was minimal. Patience pays off. Besides soft-goods, I could sell my rack for close-enough to what I paid.
Find out what you like/prefer and invest in that when you can (i.e. deal you can't pass up, which is 35%+ off for me)

Matt N wrote: I scored a deal on Heliums years ago and got 20 for alpine draws, 10 red, 10 silver. Red for rope.
I don't even take many falls sport climbing, let alone trad, but I still like the different 'biners (and I'm not really OCD).
I could shave weight going with some other options, but the Heliums clip so damn nice. They'll also last a really long time, so the added cost wasn't much really.

I had OZ hoodwire racking biners on my cams for a while, then when I updated my rack with Totems and new WC Friends, I used DMM Alpha Trad and Heliums. Each time I unclipped a BD cam with OZ off my harness, there was this little tinge of something not as nice - more so when I'd clip the rope direct to one, also. What sealed the deal is the weaker rating of the OZ. I ended up replacing the few remaining OZs I had with Chimeras.

Its personal preference, big time. I climb for fun. Plenty of people climb harder on mis-matched everything or "old" gear. I need all the help I can get when pumped/gripped and grabbing for a piece!
I've upgraded my rack throughout the years and after finding deals and reselling, the cost outlay was minimal. Patience pays off. Besides soft-goods, I could sell my rack for close-enough to what I paid.
Find out what you like/prefer and invest in that when you can (i.e. deal you can't pass up, which is 35%+ off for me) 

Thanks for sharing Matt. I totally agree this is all a matter of preference, that's why I don't just go with cheap and functional Dyons.

And ditto about just having fun- especially with trad. I'm way more willing to push grade into the 11's on bolts, but l'm kind of a weakling trad gumby (just shy of 2 years experience) and I don't enjoy climbing much harder than 5.9, though I'm getting better all the time. I too need all the help I can get.

Think I'll wait til Chimeras are on sale and get those for the gear-end and keep my Neutrinos for the rope-end (for easy identification).

How much have you clipped Alpha trad/sport in the real world? The only reason I have them is the bent spine, I found that I can lock it into my hand much more securely- obviously each UX is different but I was never able to ensure security every single time with a straight spine, as there's nothing to catch my hand on...vs the Alpha Sport has not only the bent spine but also ribs to grip, along with the nice bent gate to slam the rope through.

Heliums are nice and all, but just too tough to get them less than $10/ea and the nose size limits it's versatility vs the Dyon, which helped me make the wholesale switch.
Agree w/ Matt that they are almost as good to clip as the Alpha Sport though... ;)

gonna point out another aspect that no one else has mentioned so far.  i've noticed Photons seem to have a higher tendency to get into crossload orientations w the clipped rope, esp across its gate, more so than most other biners.  i've climbed with people who owned them, saw that many times

i first noticed it out at JTree, on multiple occasions that one day.  seemed and felt like too often.  then one time a borrowed rack for Indian Creek happened to come w numerous Photons, so i played w them at home.  i simply rigged a sling on the high back of a barstool w a Photon to clip a rope into, and flicked rope around w hand at various angles, no diff than the way a clipped rope commonly moves around due to typical leader or belayer movements.  i could easily flip that biner to have its gate rest on the rope or sling and stay that way.  harder to do this with other biners.  very difficult to do this w the WC Helium, another lightweight wiregate, which i happen to have many due to other favorable factors

beyond that, i've done no formal studies on this.  if someone gives me access to a lab and a blank check, sure, i could put in some research hrs.  but i think there is such a thing as "too light" for some biner uses

say hypothetically one could make biners out of a miracle material that's light as paper and still strong as aluminum. everyone can see how that could be a bad idea in some situations, right?  i mean, with a biner that could get re-oriented by the faintest tug or a mere light breeze, or could now get into and stay at previously impossible orientations bec it no longer has much heft, like literally as flimsy as a paper biner cutout, that should lead to some nervous concerns

anyway, i pointed this out to 3 people at the time.  told them what i had noticed, but that they ought to check that out too and see for themselves.  2 have many Photons on their rack, and 1 was considering switching to them.  they all ended up going w another option

and i'm sure Photons do excel in some other aspects. not saying they're bad in every way or anything like that. am quite happy w other Camp biners that i own

Christian Hesch wrote:Agree w/ Matt that they are almost as good to clip as the Alpha Sport though... ;)

Last year I needed to swap out my first set of sport draws; it was around my birthday, so I ran the numbers and figured an extra $100 over 12 cheap draws and I could get the Alpha Sport (on sale for $18 or less, IIRC). I treated myself. They're pretty dang sweet and will last a long, long time (don't sport enough to actually wear biners out, it seems - dogbone age does it).

Sean wrote: gonna point out another aspect that no one else has mentioned so far.  i've noticed Photons seem to have a higher tendency to get into crossload orientations w the clipped rope, esp across its gate, more so than most other biners.  i've climbed with people who owned them, saw that many times

Good point, totally anecdotal, but I have also noted that the light weight biners seem to get in bad loading configurations much more easily than what I would call "Old School" carabiners. 

For example, when I started climbing it was either an oval or D.  Neither one of these 65gm carabiners would easily get into a cross load situation. The geometry just wasn't there.
When the engineers started pushing aluminum around to make the modern wonders, they got more out of less, but now they seem to hang up more on an open sling.

For this reason, when I have a critical piece, I always have available a sling with a captive biner. I use the 30cm BD Nylon open sling with one end with a Petzl string. (I am aware of the danger of having an open sling with a string) You could use tape or a rubber band. Point is if you capture the rope side biner, it makes it harder to get in that cross-load configuration. 

Some perspective on carabiner sizes...BITD, most people used the BD ovals as the standard.

Top left: Petzl Spirit, BD Positron, DMM Phantom, old BD Oval, KONG oval
Middle left: DMM Shadow, Petzl Djinn, BD Livewire, BD Hotwire, Camp Photon
Bottom: CAMP Dyon, BD Neutrino, DMM Chimera, DMM Phantom, CAMP Nano, Edelrid 19
Metolius UL Master cam

If you look at the CAMP Nano, and the DMM Phantom/Chimera, you'll notice they are about the same size outside. But look at the inner volume...DMM is much bigger on the inside of the carabiner, which makes it way easier to clip.

My typical rack of Trad draws, which I carry on my harness gear loops with pro on a gear sling. I have loose over the shoulder slings if I think I'll need more than this.
Seven 60cm alpine w/Chimera, Seven 18cm open dogbone and three 30 cm open sling. These are all pretty much new, since all of my old gear is  of the BD oval vintage (15+ yrs)

you carry seventeen draws for single pitch devil's lake routes, plus extra shoulder length?

PWZ wrote: you carry seventeen draws for single pitch devil's lake routes, plus extra shoulder length?

Don't you???

This would be an "alpine" rack for somewhere I know has long pitches. My point, I guess, is that you'll probably never need more than that.  I never lead at DL, unless I am soloing.

Buck Rio wrote: Some perspective on carabiner sizes...BITD, most people used the BD ovals as the standard.

Top left: Petzl Spirit, BD Positron, DMM Phantom, old BD Oval, KONG oval
Middle left: DMM Shadow, Petzl Djinn, BD Livewire, BD Hotwire, Camp Photon
Bottom: CAMP Dyon, BD Neutrino, DMM Chimera, DMM Phantom, CAMP Nano, Edelrid 19
Metolius UL Master cam

If you look at the CAMP Nano, and the DMM Phantom/Chimera, you'll notice they are about the same size outside. But look at the inner volume...DMM is much bigger on the inside of the carabiner, which makes it way easier to clip.

My typical rack of Trad draws, which I carry on my harness gear loops with pro on a gear sling. I have loose over the shoulder slings if I think I'll need more than this.
Seven 60cm alpine w/Chimera, Seven 18cm open dogbone and three 30 cm open sling. These are all pretty much new, since all of my old gear is  of the BD oval vintage (15+ yrs)

Dude you're the best this is so helpful. I just bought 18 DMM Chimeras for the gear end. Stoked!

One day I'll upgrade racking biners to snagless. I think it would help me move to gates out.

Thanks!