COVID-19 - Climbing in Jeffco Open Space

Franck Vee wrote:

Once we get things reasonably under control, we can consider doing contact tracing (e.g. see South-east asia). The point of the lockdown is not to pause everything until covid as a whole is magically gone - the point is to get a grip on it enough so that less drastic measures can be implemented in place of a lockdown. Of course in contact tracing, there is tracing. Dunno if people are down for that. I guess we'll see.

South Korea never really had a full lockdown, because they got their shit toghether fast enough that they never really got to the point where tracing every cases & potentially infected people from those cases wasn't practical anymore. China had to because they didn't get their shit toghether. Nor did the US, most of Europe, Canada...

Yeah amputation isn't a perfect parallele that's true, but the gist of it is pretty similar. Do you cut your losses now with a relatively known loss, or do you take a chance of no loosing anything put also risking loosing a lot more later on?

I guess bottom line for me is - until you can some semblance of control on things, better be more aggressive than less. Also factoring in that health care has more time to get supplies, reorganize, we get to understand better what helps prevent infections, how to best minimize complications from covid, etc....

Totally agree. Interesting article someone posted in the general section:

https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/04/12/999117/blueprint-what-it-will-take-to-live-in-a-world-with-covid-19/

Mark E Dixon wrote:

What if they get a fish hook stuck in their thumb and have to go to the ER?

Thousands could die!

Oh yeah.  Sorry, I just wasn't thinking it through!

Mark E Dixon wrote:

What if they get a fish hook stuck in their thumb and have to go to the ER?

Thousands could die!

Plus the chance of a fish born virus jumping to humans. Could be in the millions.

Natalie M wrote: Well, sounds like surfaces are not the problem?

Researchers "could not find any evidence of 'living' viruses on surfaces.

https://today.rtl.lu/news/science-and-environment/a/1498185.html?

If that was the case this virus wouldn't be spreading as fast.

Cosmiccragsman AKA Dwain wrote: If that was the case this virus wouldn't be spreading as fast.

Measles is more infectious and only survives on a surface for 2 hours.

I think if it takes longer than 10 min for you to get to your nearest crag you should stay home. And for f*cks sake stay OUT of BOULDER CANYON unless you are a resident or live in NED. There is mad traffic due to construction and still the canyon gets filled with gumbies and chuffers who are epic-ing on cob rock. stay home you nancies. No body cares that you THINK  you are social distancing, if you wear a daisy chain thong then stay home. PAS are for gumby junk shows. Even after covid passes just stay home.  

Trevor stuart wrote:

Measles is more infectious and only survives on a surface for 2 hours.

https://www.vox.com/covid-19-coronavirus-treatment-prevention-cure-vaccines/2020/4/1/21203242/coronavirus-flu-covid-19

evan h wrote:

How can climbing be be justified when stay-home-orders clearly state leaving should only be done for essential activities?

I know, I know... it's almost like some of them can't read at all, right?
Like, for example, what counts as a necessary activity?
By way of example, outdoor recreation...

If you don't think that people should climb, that's fine.  
But you should not go getting too uppity about what is 'clearly stated' in the orders when you've got it wrong.

Dana Bartlett wrote:

That's interesting. I only had time to do did a quick search - about five minutes - and found half a dozen articles, JAMA, Journal of Hospital Infection, and so on.  All the researchers found extensive environmental surface contamination with the virus.  

Of course in the beginning the news was saying it could live up to 20 days on surfaces, now its down to 2+ days. 

evan h wrote:

Apologies for getting you so agitated Tony. The internet can be a tough place to have a debate.

I understand that being outside is allowed, but the spirit of the order is straight-forward: keep at home unless you must leave. Being outside is fine, but you must keep your distance. Being outside is hardly necessary in the eyes of policy makers, but it’s allowed. Clearly the policy makers are seeing these allowances being abused.
People are making some awfully convenient interpretations to continue what they just can’t put aside. How many climbers are really socially distancing? The order also states to wear a mask. How many are doing that? 
If you can climb only with those who you already live with in an area that’s truly secluded, go ahead. But then if you get hurt and need a rescue, I wouldn’t expect warm feelings from those who respond.

Evan,

I'm not particularly agitated.  
I was however answering your question, which seemed ignorant at first, but now appears to be simply disingenuous.

But here you've admitted that the orders do specifically allow outdoor recreation, why did you ask that question?
Because you didn't want to state your desired answer?  Which would have been incorrect?
Yes, the net can be a tough place for debate, particularly if you don't follow the rules of debate.  
Misleading rhetorical questions are not the way to engage in debate.

Some people have clearly not read the governors order, have not listened to any of his speeches, or have completely ignored portions of both.
From your prior responses, you seemed to be one of these.  To be more specific, for clarity...

Written into those orders, there are several articles of 'necessary' activities that are exempt from the keep at home order.  
Or for that matter the overlapping one issued by the counties are similar, such as in Boulder.  And I quote:
"iii.   To engage in outdoor activity individually or in groups of no more than 4 persons, provided each individual complies with social distancing Requirements as defined in Paragraph 5, such as, by way of example and without limitation, walking, hiking, biking, or running.  Social distancing requirements for outdoor activity apply only to those people from different households."

And so, a few points here:
1) Outdoor activities are considered 'necessary activities' as specifically codified by the laws/orders you keep referring to.
2) Members of a household don't have to distance, be they room-mates or families.  They don't have to wear masks if not around others or space out 6' from each other.
3) Law also specifically defines disorderly conduct, including harassment and menacing.  These include threatening behaviors intended to prevent a person from engaging in legal activities, and you can do time for that kind of crap.

I can't tell you if or how many climbers are social distancing.  I have no idea.  
I would guess that if I were to show up at The Canal Zone or Table Mountain with Binocs, I could fine people standing 2' apart without masks on.  But I can't say if they are or are not of the same household.  I would suppose, that like anything else, some people are abusing the rules.  One needs go no further than a grocery to see it.
If the authorities have time to police something, that's probably where their energy can make the most difference.  
But they don't want to engage in policing King Supers, and can hardly 'shut it down.'
And hikers/climbers/fisherman/bikers are visible and the cops of various ilk see that as a place to go make a statement without a huge uproar from the G.P.

Mark E Dixon wrote:

What if they get a fish hook stuck in their thumb and have to go to the ER?

Thousands could die!

You jest- but my gnarliest injuries have come from fishing, not climbing!

what tony said...

stop the hysteria people.

teece303 wrote:

If you live in Denver, you are not supposed to travel to other communities to climb.

This is spelled out in their FAQ.

”Can I still travel to other towns in Colorado or the mountains for recreation?
No. PLEASE STAY HOME. Staying at home means staying where you are --not going to neighboring communities or the mountains for recreation where we could further spread COVID-19 and overwhelm limited healthcare systems.”

https://www.denvergov.org/content/denvergov/en/environmental-health/news/coronavirus-info/frequently-asked-questions---stay-at-home-order.html

That is not in the actual stay home order. FAQs are not law.

Jeff G wrote:

Why in the world would the fishermen need to stay home?  

I'd rate the probability of a stream-fisherman getting an injury that merits medical attention about the same as that of a climber top-roping, or an advanced climber leading below his ability.
Note that I've been both a fisherman and a climber for more than 30 years of both.  Seen rescues, ambulances, and deaths in both arenas.  More for climbing, of course, but that was generally not for people leading below their limit or advanced climbers.
I've personally pulled people out from holes in the ice, out out of a creek when they went down in it.  
You know, there's a reason why the fire dept does drills every year on ice/water rescue.

There are very few risk-free outdoor sports.  The question is how much risk we're talking about.
And if I were to go climbing tomorrow, my ambitions would be informed by our current situation... well, that and a foot of snow.
Likewise for fishing.  I wouldn't be too ambitious about fast water or thin ice.  But chucking spinners off the shore?  THat's about the same as top-roping or leading well protected 5.9.

So what's my answer to the question?  No need for fishermen to stay home.
They just need to mind their situation and not add to a problem.

Trevor stuart wrote:

Measles is more infectious and only survives on a surface for 2 hours.

Measles transmits as a truly airborne disease, not just in droplets.  Same for TB.
Apples and Oranges...
It's not about how long the virus lives in this case, it's about the vector of transmission that makes Measles more infectuous.
There's no point in comparing the two.  Please don't.

climber 2 years ago:  "no mom/insurance agent/whoever, climbing is super safe.  i swear it is.  numerous studies have shown that it is about as safe as walking down the street..."

climber now:  "climbing is a very high risk activity, climbers are going to fall and get hurt, and then spread covid to the rescue team. we need to close all climbing areas on earth, pronto!"

climber 2 years from now: "climbing is super safe, i swear.  nobody is going to get hurt.  can we please re-open the area that i started a petition to the state governor to close?  please, please, please?"

PRRose wrote:

That is not in the actual stay home order. FAQs are not law.

So quote the law.

imma go with a  FAQ about the law from the people that wrote it.— I also just read the CO order. Hint: I’m right.—
Read below. You’re allowed to play outside, but I do NOT see traveling to your outdoor recreation  areas as necessary travel unless it is on your “vicinity.”—
As I understand it, Denver had a more restrictive order, but while not rescinded, it was changed to “re-align” with the CO order.—
But even in the CO order I’m seeing pretty strong wording indicating you can recreate outside, but that *traveling* to that recreation is NOT a necessary travel.
I’m not a lawyer.  But I can read English.— —https://cha.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Fourth-Updated-Public-Health-Order-Authorized-Business.pdf
“STAY AT HOME
A. All individuals currently living within the State of Colorado are ordered to
Stay at Home whenever possible. Individuals living in shared or outdoor spaces must at all times, to the greatest extent possible, comply with Social Distancing Requirements, and may leave their Residences only to perform or utilize Necessary Activities.”
...
“Engaging in outdoor activity, such as, by way of example and without limitation, walking, hiking, nordic skiing, snowshoeing, biking or running. For purposes of outdoor activity, State parks will remain open to the public who live in the vicinity to engage in walking, hiking, biking, running, and similar outdoor activities but all playgrounds, picnic areas, other similar areas conducive to public gathering, and attended areas shall be closed. For other parks, check with the local jurisdiction and follow any requirements for that jurisdiction. Additionally, the permitted outdoor activities in this PHO do not include activities that would violate the Social Distancing Requirements defined in Section III.F, below.”
...
“Necessary travel. For purposes of this order travel is necessary for any of the following purposes: (1) providing or accessing Necessary Activities, Minimum Basic Operations, Critical Government Functions, and Critical Businesses; (2) receiving materials for distance learning, for receiving meals, and any other related services from educational institutions; (3) returning to a place of Residence from outside the jurisdiction; (4) travel required by law enforcement or court order; (5) travel to transport children between separate households pursuant to a parenting plan or other agreement governing parental responsibilities;”