NC climbing areas are closed.

I’m all for reasonable climbing during the pandemic, but I think we should be doing it at the closest and least heavily used locations available to each of us. If Pisgah has been a madhouse, maybe the closure is necessary. 

Austin Goff wrote: Link to FS announcement below:

https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/nfsnc/news-events/?cid=FSEPRD724408&fbclid=IwAR1MZ8Cc25RP4nB4zIcgmSG2sTJrp-V9C1OuV_nkHdGmmLGcEbof3iA30_I

Wow! Just amazing to see it happening. That’s a ton of trails and roads to close.  What is especially concerning is that they are closed until “August 13, 2020, or until rescinded.”

On the bright side, some of those areas are heavily used and a season off will allow regrowth and regeneration like never before seen in my lifetime. 

Have been thinking the same thing about camping areas throughout the country.  There’s allot of trampled down areas and human waste to recoverer and breakdown.  This might be the only positive thing coming about from the shutdown.  

Otherwise I’m getting very concerned that they will shutdown most or all mountain access for the entire summer. Having access to the higher mountains is what makes living in the piedmont bearable during the hottest months.

BigCountry wrote:

Tip of the hat to you as you sir are right! Sean however is apparently a complete dipshit, wag of the finger

No sir, you are. Sean is a prolific first ascentionist, guide book author, and most important, access advocate who headed the CCC for years, put it on the map, really, and was instrumental in opening and/or acquiring several areas in NC, including Laurel Knob, which I believe is the tallest rock wall east of the Rockies, though there could be something taller in the PQ.

One of the more irritating behaviors that I’ve seen metastasize over the years is for so many people to listen to ‘experts’ and loudly adopt positions where they themselves have no knowledge or understanding, but doing so makes them feel virtuous and good, because an ‘expert’ told them it is the ‘right’ thing in a moral or ethical sense to do, and they are rewarded by the approval of the equally uninformed. There is no question that many of the instances of social distancing, protecting the vulnerable, and safeguarding the essential are serving to mitigate the crisis, but that is not a reason to mindlessly embrace every single idiotic idea that won’t in fact mitigate anything but is simply enacted to make it look like you are ‘doing something’ and a fine person. This closure is certainly one of those. For those who just want to embrace every idea for restricting people in the name of the public good I have a few tough facts:
a) this virus is not going to be eradicated. There will be cases somewhere in the world for the rest of your life, regardless of vaccines, treatments, or quarantines.
b) the whole concept of ‘flattening the curve’ is to simply ease the stress on the health system, but it accepts that eradication is not possible and that the only way back to some sort of normalcy is for lots and lots of people to get it and recover. It is assuming that probably somewhere in the vicinity of 50% of you reading this very likely will at some point contract it—and need to do so. Sure, a ‘miracle’ vaccine could change that calculus, think polio (though there is still polio), but destroying the economy and permanently altering government’s relationship to the people in the hopes of such occurring in the near term is like buying a lottery ticket in hopes of being able to pay the mortgage. (And until we understand why and how this virus triggers cytokine storms I won’t be lining up to be first to take a vaccine.)

Given the above, it makes no sense to adopt draconian measures restricting people’s freedom when such measures do not mitigate anything. I go climbing every weekend and will continue to do so. I drive 15-20 minutes and I go places where there are no people and probably won’t be for weeks or months, if ever. There is no interaction and no chance of contracting or spreading the virus. If the N.Y. DEC adopted such a closure here it would accomplish nothing except to interfere with that, and I would do what I always do with stupid and inane regulation: I would ignore it.

Can we add "If you do go outside climbing, don't spray about it" to the mix??? (Especially on social media or MP) You're gonna bring undue attention to ME getting caught climbing at YOUR local crags while you stay at home and attempt to tell people what to do on some silly forum.

(;

Jim Corbett wrote:

No sir, you are. Sean is a prolific first ascentionist, guide book author, and most important, access advocate who headed the CCC for years, put it on the map, really, and was instrumental in opening and/or acquiring several areas in NC, including Laurel Knob, which I believe is the tallest rock wall east of the Rockies, though there could be something taller in the PQ.

One of the more irritating behaviors that I’ve seen metastasize over the years is for so many people to listen to ‘experts’ and loudly adopt positions where they themselves have no knowledge or understanding, but doing so makes them feel virtuous and good, because an ‘expert’ told them it is the ‘right’ thing in a moral or ethical sense to do, and they are rewarded by the approval of the equally uninformed. There is no question that many of the instances of social distancing, protecting the vulnerable, and safeguarding the essential are serving to mitigate the crisis, but that is not a reason to mindlessly embrace every single idiotic idea that won’t in fact mitigate anything but is simply enacted to make it look like you are ‘doing something’ and a fine person. This closure is certainly one of those. For those who just want to embrace every idea for restricting people in the name of the public good I have a few tough facts:
a) this virus is not going to be eradicated. There will be cases somewhere in the world for the rest of your life, regardless of vaccines, treatments, or quarantines.
b) the whole concept of ‘flattening the curve’ is to simply ease the stress on the health system, but it accepts that eradication is not possible and that the only way back to some sort of normalcy is for lots and lots of people to get it and recover. It is assuming that probably somewhere in the vicinity of 50% of you reading this very likely will at some point contract it—and need to do so. Sure, a ‘miracle’ vaccine could change that calculus, think polio (though there is still polio), but destroying the economy and permanently altering government’s relationship to the people in the hopes of such occurring in the near term is like buying a lottery ticket in hopes of being able to pay the mortgage. (And until we understand why and how this virus triggers cytokine storms I won’t be lining up to be first to take a vaccine.)

Given the above, it makes no sense to adopt draconian measures restricting people’s freedom when such measures do not mitigate anything. I go climbing every weekend and will continue to do so. I drive 15-20 minutes and I go places where there are no people and probably won’t be for weeks or months, if ever. There is no interaction and no chance of contracting or spreading the virus. If the N.Y. DEC adopted such a closure here it would accomplish nothing except to interfere with that, and I would do what I always do with stupid and inane regulation: I would ignore it.

Also, what he said... ^ ^ ^

Jim Corbett wrote: One of the more irritating behaviors that I’ve seen metastasize over the years is for so many people to listen to ‘experts’ 

Climbing rocks aside, the prevalence of the opinion that "You shouldn't listen to experts" is an underlying reason why so many problems in the world exists. And why misplaced confidence is one of the biggest problems continually facing society.

You can make a very coherent story out of very little information, and out of information that is, in fact, not reliable. The quality of the story depends very little on the quality and quantity of the information. So people can be very confident with very little reason. Confidence, therefore, is not a good diagnostic for when you can trust either yourself or someone else. -Daniel Kahneman

People not trusting science. Trusting their gut. Their instincts. Their own thoughts over someone who knows more than them.

It requires checking your ego to understand that an expert is more likely to be right than you are. Humans, especially males, are terrible at self-evaluation.

Brian Abram wrote:

Russian collusion...

michael s wrote: Humans, especially males, are terrible at self-evaluation.

I am excellent at self evaluation. Prove me wrong.

SinRopa wrote: There have been a lot of legitimate, science-based, statistically-sound articles and opinion pieces written by experts theorizing that due to a combination of economic principles and refined medical data, a near-complete, country-wide shutdown is the wrong strategy to pursue.  

Thoughtful response! I would be interested in reading something along these lines if you have any sources. Maybe its the media I consume but I don't see a lot of this.

Edit: (I had a longer response but lost it battling MP's ridiculous limit of 2 posts)

   Your source below is an article entirely based on the twitter feed of one individual who, according to your article "become a professional investor after making hugely profitable bets in the stock market". It seems likely to me his opinions are biased in favor of helping the economy, potentially at the expense of human lives. He earned an MD but was never a practicing doctor. I'm not sure what makes him an expert in epidemiology.  Especially given the extremely complex and unprecedented nature of what is currently going on. Also, if he is such an expert in knowing how to make good public policy, why isn't he currently involved in that? Why does he seem to have little influence on people that do make policies? 

  Anyways, it's interesting to read about the opinions of one person who thinks differently. Looking forward to more legitimate, science based, statistically sound sources that say the current national trend towards policies that promote social distancing is misguided.

So his prolific first ascents and stewardship make him an expert in this time of pandemic smfh... like someone said asshats not following and basically shitting all over the restrictions are causing more restrictions. This shit is global and governments all over the world are putting in similar or worse. If your not keeping your head up and your eyes open don't walk in the road. Good ol boys yall crack me up jumping to each others defense

"It requires checking your ego to understand that an expert is more likely to be right than you are."

Sure, but there are good reasons to question even the fundamental systems and  assumptions of our lives. Take western medicine vs. eastern.  Also food and nutrition.  There are plenty of areas where being "right" is up for debate.

Russ Keane wrote:
Sure, but there are good reasons to question even the fundamental systems and  assumptions of our lives. Take western medicine vs. eastern.  Also food and nutrition.  There are plenty of areas where being "right" is up for debate.

I see your point, but isn't that also the logic of flat earthers and anti-vaxxers? 

While I'm all for questioning the paradigm and coming to your own conclusions, sometimes you gotta pick your battles or you'll never be able to get anything accomplished, or even hinder other peoples accomplishments.

When the choice is either ruining my fun for a few months or the chance of literally killing other people, I'll take the former just in case. 

Russ Keane wrote:
Sure, but there are good reasons to question even the fundamental systems and  assumptions of our lives. Take western medicine vs. eastern.  

National Geographic on traditional Chinese medicine

Eastern medicine is likely a huge contributor to cross-species transmission and the emergence of novel viruses

Andre Chiquito wrote:
When the choice is either ruining my fun for a few months or the chance of literally killing other people, I'll take the former just in case. 

The problem is...this isn't going to be just a few months with what some experts are saying now.  Some experts are now foreseeing this going on for 18 months or even more to keep things looking the way they do now.  

With such a small fraction of the population coming into contact with the virus because of how things are now, there is no chance of any type of herd immunity developing.  That leaves us with continuing under the conditions we're in and waiting for 18 or more months for a vaccine to be developed.

I don't exactly know how I feel about that yet.  I don't know how I feel about loosening restrictions and watching COVID19 (hopefully at a slower rate) spread.  I don't know how I feel about watching "non-essential" businesses die.  I don't know how I feel about my daughters getting or not getting to go back to school in August.  I don't know how I feel about about whether state parks or national forests being closed indefinitely.  Actually...I do know how I feel about that, because I think closing them was absurd in the first place.

Look, I'm not calling myself an expert on pandemic mitigation management, but no current expert has ever actually dealt with anything like this.  All they have is their education credentials and past "experiences."  I have a professional doctoral degree (doctor of pharmacy), experience in direct clinical patient care in the VA now, and experience as a military pharmacist in the Air Force.  No expert knows exactly what strategy is going to best manage and balance resuming operations.  

The current restrictions are going to have dire consequences that have to be balanced with loss of lives, and the "if we can just save one life mentality" is futile.  There's no way around that.  Whether we start to lower restrictions in a couple of weeks, a month, or two months...COVID19 will still be here and people will continue to get it and die.  There will be terrible outbreaks of it, like what we are seeing in nursing homes right now in NC.  This will continue to happen...whether I go climbing or not.  It's going to happen whether you go climbing or not.

Russ Keane wrote: There are plenty of areas where being "right" is up for debate.

Like Tricams.

So have you guys decided if I can climb at your local crags yet? It's been pretty tiring sitting at the base of this route checking my phone for MP Forum updates.... I spent all day yesterday spraying Lysol on the holds of pitches 3 and 4 of Dopey Duck.

Don't worry, I've been using liquid chalk too, since it contains at least 60% alcohol. 

Josh McMillan wrote: So have you guys decided if I can climb at your local crags yet? 

Continue to standby to standby. 

Russ Keane wrote: "It requires checking your ego to understand that an expert is more likely to be right than you are."

Sure, but there are good reasons to question even the fundamental systems and  assumptions of our lives. Take western medicine vs. eastern.  Also food and nutrition.  There are plenty of areas where being "right" is up for debate.

What expert? What credintials are you providing that Sean is an expert in anything other than first ascents and stewardship with he CCC and putting things on the map? You know I consider myself an expert on snowmaking, so yall should take medical pandemic advice from me I'm an expert. Maybe there is room for debate about whether I'm right or not. 

BigCountry wrote:

What expert? What credintials are you providing that Sean is an expert in anything other than first ascents and stewardship with he CCC and putting things on the map? You know I consider myself an expert on snowmaking, so yall should take medical pandemic advice from me I'm an expert. Maybe there is room for debate about whether I'm right or not. 

Sean is also a lawyer. Just saying he can probably understand laws and certain restrictions more than most us via the language used. 

To everyone else:

the reason NC climbing areas such as pisgah are closed is because people kept going, along with everyone else in the community. They all thought that the best way to practice social distancing was to get outside. Great idea in all honesty. Except when everyone executed the same plan...it’s no longer novel. The areas closed due to people getting to the pisgah and being reluctant to turn around after seeing a bazillion other cars. What better way to control the flow of people than to simply close the entire area when cost is an issue? (This is one reason, that people could argue, why recreation in the Colorado Front Range increased the infection rate in CO)

Yes, it sucks. But own up to the fact that we are partly to blame. If you want to keep climbing in these areas, go for it. Better not f**k up though. 

If you don’t mind calling SAR and risking people coming into close contact with one another because “there’s no way I’ll get COVID-19,” go for it. It’s your choice and your risk. Who cares that you’re going to risk others. You’re obviously selfish for starting a thread like this in the first place. 

By all means, if you’re on the fence and asking the internet to make your decision, then just go. You’re old enough to decide the risks. Besides, I bet you already were climbing. 

As far as herd immunity not happening because the number of people out being exposed is low, so you think social distancing is a hoax...That’s not why we are doing that. We are doing it to lower the burden on the health system so that over time the more and more are able to recover in a hospital (if needed). Eventually it’ll give herd immunity, make the SARs-CoV-19 become seasonal, or we’ll develop a vaccine. It sucks. The whole thing sucks but we are all here together and surely please don’t become another number on the list of those dying. 

5/10 troll because you got 7 pages.