I lowered someone in “guide mode” today

Glad you backed things up, but if I was dropped a few feet I'd still be very pissed. It means something fucked up.

If my partner on the other hand said "Hey I'd like to practice a technique with you 3' off the ground" I'd say sure, and not mind if I did fall 3'.

Jared Chrysostom wrote: And holy shit I will never do that again. 

yeah, end thread

Lowering with an atc in guide mode is a pain, even when done properly with a backup. If you plan on being in this situation (guiding, taking out inexperienced people, dealing with children, etc) again with any frequency, consider getting a grigri. Very safe and smooth lower action when combined with a petzl freino (or any second carabiner). Second the DMM pivot. 

Jared Chrysostom wrote:

Why is that? Because I had a mildly challenging experience on a 5.6 climb at a deserted crag 30 minutes from my house? 

You almost killed a person on that 5.6 at a deserted crag 30 minutes from your house.

Ted Pinson wrote:

You almost killed a person on that 5.6 at a deserted crag 30 minutes from your house.

Whoa there. Sometimes I really hate this forum. 

Thanks to the people who had something useful to say. 

Jared Chrysostom wrote:

Whoa there. Sometimes I really hate this forum. 

Thanks to the people who had something useful to say. 

He’s right you know, dropping someone  few feet on a 5.6 terrain is a recipe for disaster. 

You’re welcome.  Maybe next time don’t experiment with something potentially dangerous you’ve never done before at the top of a climb with another person’s life in your hands during a global pandemic where medical resources are already stretched to the breaking point?  Just a thought.

Wow! Me thinks you guys stuck inside too much. He asked a simple question, relax.

It is interesting to note the level of unanimity about rappel backups, and then you have people who probably wouldn't rappel without a backup lowering with a guide plate---yes even a Pivot---with no backup.  Actually, there is nothing in the rappelling system remotely like what happens when you over-tilt a loaded guide plate; the guide plates are far more likely to produce a sudden bad event.  All plates will release suddenly---quite possibly with catastrophic consequences---and although the Pivot is more controllable than the others, it is by no means failure-proof.  

 If the second isn't just dead weight hanging on the rope---if they can unweight it momentarily---then I think the load strand direct (LSD) method is the way to go (but still with a backup).  


If the second can't unweight the rope, there is a rather kludgey LSD work-around

Note that if you use the LSD method, you've turned the plate into a more or less constant friction device---it won't lock anymore if you relax your grip.

Depending where the second is relative to the belay, an assisted hoist might be preferable to lowering. (Note: trying to do an ordinary so-called 3:1 hoist is quite likely to end in total failure because of the amount of friction involved.)  I'm talking about the system in which one lowers a loop of slack to the second which the second as well as the belayer can yard on..

Tradiban wrote: Wow! Me thinks you guys stuck inside too much. He asked a simple question, relax.

Yes I am stuck inside too much. It's terrible. 

Ted Pinson wrote: You’re welcome.  Maybe next time don’t experiment with something potentially dangerous you’ve never done before at the top of a climb with another person’s life in your hands during a global pandemic where medical resources are already stretched to the breaking point?  Just a thought.

Sounds like he had a backup and thought about what he was doing. You are telling me that you have never had to think and implement a system on the fly while climbing? I'd honestly be way more scared to climb with you. Imagine asking for advice and then getting roasted for not knowing the advice that you seek. Glad we have all these arm chair climbers with their pitch forks out. 

Tradiban wrote: Wow! Me thinks you guys stuck inside too much. He asked a simple question, relax.

People get like that when they feel morally superior.  It's just like any other religion.

Connor Dobson wrote:

...Imagine asking for advice and then getting roasted for not knowing the advice that you seek...

I think this thread might be a case of "got more advice on more subjects than wanted". Perhaps a mild roasting was a side effect.

It's a hobby unforgiving of mistakes, bones break, partners die. Even when everything's going safe and well, sometimes we can't handle it and start buckling under the stress mentally as we are gripped by fear.

People posting can be harsh and judgmental. But compared to the hobby itself, it all seems extraordinarily mild, wouldn't you say? Perhaps it is fitting if MP isn't entirely a safe space.

I’ve only released an autoblock when practicing it just to know the techniques for lowering in auto-block mode. Just from that practice the binary on/off release made me sure I wouldn’t lower more than 10-15 feet that way. I used a reverso and maybe a megajul but if it’s just a short adjustment for climber to work a move I feel comfortable putting a carabiner in the lowering slot and gently using it as a lever.  I think spirits go all the way through and some of mine get hooked around the nose, the ones that nose hook are what I prefer because it makes it a more effective lever. If it’s longer 10-15ft or climber is heavy I’d use a sling through masterpoint and friction hitch/munter backup for more control.

 If lowering for an entire pitch I’d rather not do it by defeating guide mode and would instead load transfer and lower normally. Only done it in practice with partner on easy terrain but moved load onto a friction hitch on the load stand and lower with gri gri if I have it or remove the atc and lower regularly. Way easier to transfer load than it is to lower in guide mode. 

If anyone is itching to do something climbing related now may be a good time to practice various rescue techniques.

Sunday Ruff wrote: We definitely do not need these naysayers telling us when we can and can't climb. Who cares about knowing the skills of our climbing partners? It's all about me anyway. If my climbing partner can't do the 5.6 then I'll just recall what I read in the user manual and lower her down. Good thing I tied that Munter hitch and saved her life. I'm so smart. I've been climbing for so long anyway that if a serious accident was going to happen, it would've already happened by now. I will never need a rescue crew to help me because I am basically accident-proof by this point. So yeah, these pandemic whiners can go suck it! 

You should add a,  /s  after that statement, Sunday.

Jared Chrysostom wrote: And holy shit I will never do that again. With a Smart Alpine 8.9-10.5 and a 9.4mm rope it was damn near impossible to release the device. I backed it up with a Munter, which was the only thing that saved me from dropping the climber when the Smart finally let go - she dropped a few feet until the Munter caught her.

Did I do something wrong? Or is guide-mode lowering really just terrible in practice, and I should never set the device up in that configuration if I think there’s a chance that the climber may not be able to finish the pitch?

Lowering in guide mode sucks on every belay device I've used with every setup I've read about. Why use the smart in guide mode instead of belaying off your harness with a redirect through the carabiner on the master point? Guide mode is to get autoblocking functionality right? The smart provides that in a top rope setup anyway. Just belay like a top rope setup and you get the assisted braking and easier lowering. Anybody have a good reason not to do it that way? 

chris p wrote:

Lowering in guide mode sucks on every belay device I've used with every setup I've read about. Why use the smart in guide mode instead of belaying off your harness with a redirect through the carabiner on the master point? Guide mode is to get autoblocking functionality right? The smart provides that in a top rope setup anyway. Just belay like a top rope setup and you get the assisted braking and easier lowering. Anybody have a good reason not to do it that way? 

With an autoblocking setup you can go hands free to eat/drink water/manage rope and anchor on multipitches.

OP: uses standard backed-up ABD lowering procedure, emphasises need for back up.

MP: reeeeeeeeeeee

rgold wrote: Very useful LSD videos and tips

Thanks rgold, I have seen the first one before but the second one is new to me. Hypothetical - what if you don’t have a carabiner smaller than the one you used to hang the belay device? If the device is on the master point of the anchor, will putting a carabiner on the shelf for the redirect accomplish the same thing? I usually use a small locker (Trango Superfly) to hang the device, and my belay/rappel HMS for the friction carabiner, but that doesn’t leave me with a smaller one to do the LSD if it becomes necessary. 

Get a grigri like everyone else. All other options are inferior.

Jared Chrysostom wrote:

Thanks rgold, I have seen the first one before but the second one is new to me. Hypothetical - what if you don’t have a carabiner smaller than the one you used to hang the belay device? If the device is on the master point of the anchor, will putting a carabiner on the shelf for the redirect accomplish the same thing? I usually use a small locker (Trango Superfly) to hang the device, and my belay/rappel HMS for the friction carabiner, but that doesn’t leave me with a smaller one to do the LSD if it becomes necessary. 

Since you can use non-lockers, a quickdraw on the shelf would be good.  If the length is off, a sling with a knot would work as well.  The easiest option would be to carry another carabiner of the same model you hang the device on.