Why are climbers arguing about this?

Not long till our rights will be taken away in the name of the common good.....yeah 2 weeks ain’t terrible. See what you’ll be saying after 1 month of lock down like a prisoner. 

Robert S wrote:

On Totem threads, where it's group worship.

Thats just a good ole boys club.  You know...  they sit in circles...

Cesar Cardenas wrote: Personally,

I find many climbers (not all of them of course) in general to be:

Egotistical.
Selfish.
Privileged without a connection to reality.
Superiority complexes.
Cookie cutter from one to the next.
A danger to the natural beauty around them.

I love climbing, and I'll always be polite, courteous, and friendly to people who come up to me, but I will not go out of my way to hang out with climbers just because they're climbers.

I think when you tick off a lot of those bullet points, you have no other intuitive action but to at least pretend to be friendly to the people that are participating in the same selfish pursuit. I say pretend, because the second you ask one of them to politely stop blasting their music, leaving their gear everywhere, bringing their dog to a non-dog park (JT), stop using drones in a no-flying zone etc, they suddenly don't care and exempt themselves from any responsibility. Here, behind the anonymity of the keyboard that many enjoy--you have a lot of mean, rude, negative responses. I'm not talking about the funny trolls like Tradiban who are are just dickin around, I'm talking about the people who are just flat out jerks. Their true personality comes out.

So, to me, its not surprising these types of people are willing to keep going out to climb. They don't have to worry about the virus, they're privileged without a connection to the consequences of reality. They are selfish and don't want to lose their "finger strength". They think it'll be ok to show up to the crag they consider remote and continue on when theres already cars in the lot.

 They don't care about the the recent issue because they don't care in general.

My 2c...man I'm so bored of online homework & staying home...

Haha, my man.  Cesar reppin' San Diego and NAILS IT.

I might have to make you an honorary South Woodson local nawmean?!

Ray T wrote: This thread reminds me of the timeless 1944 play, “No Exit”, by Jean-Paul Sartre, the most memorable line  from which is, “Hell is other people”.

Ahh mid-century French philosophers are so uplifting. To paraphrase Camus, the only philosophical question of any importance is whether to kill oneself.

Should we shut down the for sale section because of how it forces mail carriers to carry non-essential packages?

Lets start shaming all of the FS threads as well.

Every package and piece of mail we get goes to a special corner of the garage and sits for 2 days. Duh.

But we are better than "them", no?

Man, this "Democat Hoax" is getting out of hand. Luckily it will all go away, like a miracle, once it warms up.

Arne Boveng wrote: Zach Anatta wrote:"What's so hard about accepting martial law without end?"

It's because they're younger, they have a future to look forward to, and they're being asked to destroy that future based on theories backed by zero data.

There is not zero data. There is limited data, and the data are highly concerning. You're starting with a false premise and building from there.

Staying at home is not sustainable economically even in the short to medium term. Before we entertain the idea of an endless quarantine that will destroy the world's economy, we need good data. Which we do not have. The lack of data should be the way people are talking about this, not moralizing about "just stay at home, it's so simple." Nothing involving the declaration of martial law is "simple,"  and it's not sustainable anyway.

Iceland has tested a larger percentage of its citizens than any other country thus far (3.6%). Only half of those who get sick show symptoms. 

Here is evidence of your poor thinking skills. If people are sick, they're showing symptoms. 100% of those that get sick show symptoms. What I think you mean is only half of those who test positive show symptoms. Don't come on here telling us how the world is when you can't even get something like this correct.

 The vast majority of the symptomatic have mild symptoms. This was not an antibody test, meaning that it couldn't tell who has contracted the disease in the past and recovered. That means more people were actually asymptomatic or had mild symptoms.

The people who would die from this disease now are mostly going to die from it anyway, or from their underlying diseases before they catch it. The current mass quarantine effort might work in the short term to limit the spread, but as I said, it is not sustainable. Eventually it will be relaxed - long before we have a vaccine - and the susceptible population will become exposed anyway.  

If we had more information we might realize that only the elderly and those with underlying conditions should be self-quarantining right now.  

Wrong. See below. There are so many things wrong with these statements it is hard to know where to begin. Some of the reasons have been discussed above. Other reasons are being discussed elsewhere but you are failing to understand them. Yet here you are, spouting dangerous hogwash that undermines the effort against this thing.

You can disagree and moralize all that you want; the fact is, governments cannot sustain this quarantine, 

They can and are. You have made an unqualified sweeping generalization. To qualify it you need to discuss duration and degree. As it is, you are spouting intelligent-sounding nonsense. You have made an ad hoc assumption which you present as fact, upon which you build other arguments which are also faulty in their own rights.

and they will be sending people back to work sooner (much sooner) rather than later. And they should be.

Quite the confident pronouncement considering the flaws in your thinking. I understand you think you are a strong critical thinker. It is easy to think that when you are okay at it, and articulate.

The other problem are the pieces of shit in the media:

No, now is the time to think critically.
Finally someone said it...
If we look at actual data and what’s coming out of the CDC we will very quickly see that the medical community suddenly has something they cannot cure. There is no treatment, there is no vaccine. Like death, there is no way to stop this. Sorry, this is reality. Health of the few cannot outweigh the economic impact of all. Without a strong economy, we will not have the resources to sustain healthcare. Sometimes we have to just realize there are limits to what we can control in life. Evaluate the risk, decide what is acceptable based on reality, not models and projections, then keep on living. At some point the public will decide on its own that the ‘stay home’ is over despite what the government says. How long that would take is anyone’s guess. 

Hard for me to argue with this.  Or with Zach.
Easy for me to argue with post above implying everyone wait to climb (or exercise) until after the pandemic is over.  The Pandemic of 1917/1918 Spanish Flu actually last 3 or 4 years.  Note, the poster advocates to wait till the pandemic is over, not the quarantine.  You just might want to list your climbing gear on ebay.

Skipping many other faulty aspects of your argument.

It's sad when people talk about thinking critically, then omit huge swaths of reasoning, and don't even engage with those considerations. Not everyone is really that good at critical thinking, it turns out. I am referring to the OP* and this entire quote, among others.

Here's one thing that has been discussed before but apparently fails to penetrate these self-proclaimed critical thinkers: If ubiquity of the virus is not prevented or delayed, those at risk will catch it and many will die, and there are millions of us whose underlying conditions are not remotely going to kill us otherwise. Some of us don't even have "underlying diseases". I don't. In most cases our underlying conditions do not even limit ordinary life. We are not people holding onto life by a thread - we are ordinary people who you would not think twice about. I am actually the healthiest person in my family by every usual measure, but I have a higher risk of dying from this virus due to just one single factor aside from my age. Yet I climb and have a low resting heart rate for my age.

No doubt you will criticize this post because I don't dissect every aspect of your faulty reasoning. The reason is simple: If you haven't learned from others yet, from the many well-reasoned arguments and expert opinions out there, then I can't help you either. It is something beyond poor thinking skills, maybe arrogance or pride, that is preventing you from learning. Or maybe poor math skills? Your arguments tend to be non-quantitative, nor even semiquantitative. Your one attempt to use statistics was botched badly due to imprecise thinking.

Nonetheless, I hope neither you nor those you love get this virus. I wish you well.

My last post on this thread.

*Edit: Sorry Helen. Didn't mean you. Meant to say Zach's first post in this thread.

Keith Wood wrote: No doubt you will criticize this post because I don't dissect every aspect of your faulty reasoning. The reason is simple: If you haven't learned from others yet, from the many well-reasoned arguments and expert opinions out there, then I can't help you either. It is something beyond poor thinking skills, maybe arrogance or pride, that is preventing you from learning. Or maybe poor math skills? Your arguments tend to be non-quantitative, nor even semiquantitative. Your one attempt to use statistics you botched badly.

While some are just clueless, it would seem that the majority of people arguing against mitigation efforts or complaining about "lack of data" or that it's all media fueled hysteria and hype......are simply as scared as the rest of us and it's their fear-response coping mechanism.

Keith, "critical thinking" is the new "do your own research" of the trump cult.

I think they realized it was too hard for them to make up bullshit arguments against the research they requested since it was always contrary to their unfounded beliefs.

So now they just say others need to "think critically" even though they fail to grasp what either word means, much less what they mean together. Apparently now if they make shit up and are critical of experts they are "thinking critically."

Marc801 C wrote: While some are just clueless, it would seem that the majority of people arguing against mitigation efforts or complaining about "lack of data" or that it's all media fueled hysteria and hype......are simply as scared as the rest of us and it's their fear-response coping mechanism.

Or maybe they don't believe everything they read on the internet.

See.
This is proof things are under control.

Why would anyone who dissolved the pandemic response group take any responsibility for the failed response to a Democrat Hoax that turned out to be a global pandemic, which is exactly what the experts said it was and said we should be prepared for?

Tradiban wrote:Or maybe they don't believe everything they read on the internet.

All you have to believe is the epidemiologists who study this stuff for a living, and the copious data flooding in from all over the world. This information is not hard to find.

13 papers modeling the outbreak and discussing preventative measures

The line of thought implied by the above reminds me of a quote by Isaac Asimov:

“There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”

Not implementing social isolation measures would result in tens of millions of deaths worldwide. As it currently stands at least 100,000 Americans are going to die of this over the next few months, possibly millions. The former number is the best-case scenario, if we lock down hard and everyone respects the social distancing rules.

Alexander Blum wrote: The line of thought implied by the above reminds me of a quote by Isaac Asimov

And this one from Neil deGrasse Tyson

"One of the great challenges in this world is knowing enough about a subject to think you are right, but not enough to know you are wrong."

Dave K wrote: While the tiny population of climbers are bickering among themselves over whether we can spend some time in remote areas in groups of two, we still have this going on:

Tampa megachurch crowded with worshipers

Many Florida beaches are also still packed.

Thanks for putting this in perspective.

Zach Anatta,

Unless you are just a troll, I urge you to read the long response to your first post by Keith Wood. It's reply number 171 (or so, I tried to count carefully), within the 9th section of posts.

What Keith says is absolutely right. It's also carefully and plainly worded.

The best comment he made is this one:

“You have made an unqualified sweeping generalization. To qualify it you need to discuss duration and degree. As it is, you are spouting intelligent-sounding nonsense. You have made an ad hoc assumption which you present as fact, upon which you build other arguments which are also faulty in their own rights.”

I started to make a reply like his a few days ago, but decided it wasn't worth the time.

Among failures in your "critical thinking" are massive internal inconsistencies. As just one example, you claim we have no data and then segue to we have some data.

Not a critical difference? Maybe yes and maybe no. But not even agreeing with yourself within a single post is a pretty clear indication that you're not the "critical thinker" you claim you are.

Sam X wrote:

Thanks for putting this in perspective.

There's an update to the story:

The pastor of a Tampa megachurch is facing charges after refusing to close its doors despite a "safer at home" order in effect in Hillsborough County, meant to stop the spread of COVID-19. The sheriff of Hillsborough County says one of two Sunday services had up to 500 people in attendance.
 Sheriff Chad Chronister and State Attorney Andrew Warren on Monday announced that an arrest warrant had been issued for Pastor Rodney Howard-Browne. He faces misdemeanor charges of unlawful assembly and violation of public health emergency order.

Brad Young wrote:I started to make a reply like his a few days ago, but decided it wasn't worth the time.

So far I've identified around 10 people that, from their posts in the various threads, I refuse to engage with any further and never care to meet.

Dave K wrote: While the tiny population of climbers are bickering among themselves over whether we can spend some time in remote areas in groups of two, we still have this going on:

Tampa megachurch crowded with worshipers

Many Florida beaches are also still packed.

I see your point, but I'm always skeptical when we compare some behavior to a similar behavior that's worst. I am not sure if you are trying to justify our own excesses by comparing them to others who are worst. ( To be clear: I am not (I think) 100% against climbing at this point. I just think the bar needs to be pretty high, and I think depending how the situation evolves one should be ready to put climbing on pause )...

The reference should be about what we think is right, not what so church guru & his follower think...

Alexander Blum wrote:13 papers modeling the outbreak and discussing preventative measures

Great link, wasn't aware of that research group--thanks.