Local crags = disease vector?

Christopher Smaling wrote:

This isn't a virtue signaling post - I'm asking a fairly limited question and seeking real discussion...

Maybe driving an hour away (without getting out-of-area gas) is actually preferable to walking out your back door if it means the routes you climb are less trafficked?  There's plenty of shades of grey here...

Your post is fine--just what people should be talking about in fact.  But yeah, if you continue to see what you're seeing, and are concerned, maybe just head up Hwy 108 a little ways, even if just for peace of mind...

Christopher Smaling wrote: TL/DR:  Are outdoor climbing holds a vector for the novel coronavirus?

I'm lucky enough to have a crag literally in my backyard, but I will not be climbing at all because I know people are travelling from

That sucks for you brahjirahji. Far from lucky if you ask me.

Even with outta towners posting up stupid, chossy additions to the proj, I am still the only one touching my holds on MY rocks,  at MY secret local spot...

Matter of fact, haven't seen a another soul on MY rocks FOREVER...  NEVER... ever ever...

One of the issues for me is distinguishing the virtue signalling from respectable concern. There are people who actually do rock climb and are not climbing at all, these people are better people than me and they are respectable. The issue is that most the people saying don't go rock climbing were in the climbing gym until the day it closed (or at least SG seattle which I run past all the time). Immediately after the gym closed, they voice concern. I didn't see any threads about stop going to the gym, which is objectively such a grosser environment. Some of these people I have attempted to climb outside with in the past but they never actually climb outside. So when these people say don't climb outside all I see is virtue signalling by people who don't actually rock climb.

But everyday I tell myself I will stop going outside if I see people, but I have seen a total of 4 people. But then I see that smith had 2,800 visitors which is evidence that people can't avoid other people. So I don't know what to do. I have no idea how to feel because I will feel bad either way.

x15x15 wrote:

That sucks for you brahjirahji. Far from lucky if you ask me.

Even with outta towners posting up stupid, chossy additions to the proj, I am still the only one touching my holds on MY rocks,  at MY secret local spot...

Matter of fact, haven't seen a another soul on MY rocks FOREVER...  NEVER... ever ever...

Mt. Woodson eh? 

Tammy Gueterman wrote:  If are truly that worried about burdening healthcare and rescuers... Covid-19 ... has fuck all to do with this calculation. 

 You sure about that hombre? 

Tammy Gueterman wrote: Public health messaging is crafted to shape behavior of sheeple who can't be trusted or take care of themselves and others; this is largely a fair point. There are compelling reasons to completely shut down certain climbing areas that are impossible to operate in a safe manner amidst the pandemic, but at least half of this climbing #staythefuckhome is our version of panic buying TP. Everyone is overwhelmed, nobody knows what to do, and to find some semblance of control they pick what is simple, close, and familiar to them.

There are ways to climb that have essentially zero impact on anyone in terms of contact and transmission. There are still ways to climb where chance of burdening society should you mess up is essentially the same as any other day. Yes, it's selfish. Climbing has always been inherently selfish. Why would you ever want to burden a rescuer with your mangled corpse? Why would you ever risk a flight crew with your broken ankle? Why would risk leaving your non-climber family and friends in grief because of something they don't really get? You can climb now such that the ethical calculation of imposing that risk now for yourself and others is practically the same question of whether climbing was ever ethical. If are truly that worried about burdening healthcare and rescuers, why the hell do you climb at all? Covid-19 will change the world, but it has fuck all to do with this calculation. Avoiding raids of small towns was valid, but the rest of #stayathome is just generalization, hype, and virtue signaling. Live and let live, in all senses of the phrase.

Tammy you have summed up my argument perfectly. Thank you.

I think we like to have something to cling to when the world goes sideways, for many it has been enforcing the #stayhome mentality to the point of making it a black and white option. Climbers are not going to stop this by stopping climbing.

Follow the guidelines, isolate yourself, wash your hands, wipe down your credit cards, be aware of who you are around. None of that means no climbing.

What's funny to me is that currently this has been going on for a week, or two at most, and some people are already focusing on the burden placed on them if they don't climb. Anne Frank lived in her attic for two years. You will be ok.

michael s wrote: What's funny to me is that currently this has been going on for a week, or two at most, and some people are already focusing on the burden placed on them if they don't climb. Anne Frank lived in her attic for two years. You will be ok.

There is no burden you goof... some of us just like to climb and think it is hilarious that you feel so self righteous that you invent new ways that we are harming society even when we do not see people all day while climbing. 

Tammy Gueterman wrote:Avoiding raids of small towns was valid, but the rest of #stayathome is just generalization, hype, and virtue signaling. Live and let live, in all senses of the phrase.

That’s a bold statement from someone who lives in one of the worst affected areas of our country. More like live free or die, and perhaps kill your neighbors grandmother while you’re at it. 

Jon Hillis wrote:

Mt. Woodson eh? 

Brahji,Woodson's done! So millennial...

Jon Hillis wrote:

There is no burden you goof... some of us just like to climb and think it is hilarious that you feel so self righteous that you invent new ways that we are harming society even when we do not see people all day while climbing. 

michael s wrote:

Actually not true believe it or not. I am not climbing with my usual partners, it is just me and my gf. I am not climbing any of the usual areas instead hiking at least a mile back to stay away from people. I know it is hopeless to debate this with you but I am following all of the guidelines laid out for us, I go about my days as if I am infected and not wanting to spread it.  

Tammy Gueterman wrote:If are truly that worried about burdening healthcare and rescuers, why the hell do you climb at all? Covid-19 will change the world, but it has fuck all to do with this calculation.

I think you're ignorant of what is meant by "burdening healthcare and rescuers".  

As of TODAY if you broke your leg, chances are you could be rescued by a SAR team, receive prompt care, and have your needs completely met by your local hospital.  The surge of COVID cases has barely begun though.  In a months time, there is a huge possibility that your local hospital will be at capacity or beyond capacity with COVID patients.  

In this increasingly imminent reality, the SAR team intended to rescue you could be unable to respond due to illness.  Once you make it to the hospital, you may not receive care if your injuries aren't severe enough to warrant immediate attention.  If your injuries ARE severe enough to warrant attention, you will likely have to wait far longer for care, and the overly-burdened medical staff will likely be a vector of transmission for COVID.  You don't want to have to go to the hospital for ANY reason in the midst of a pandemic.  We aren't there yet, but there is smoke on the horizon.

high horse: definition from Dictionary.com:  dictionary.com/browse/high+…

high horse—noun
a haughty attitude or temper; a contemptuous manner.

This thread is exactly what I should have expected. One group ignoring all the responses by the other group and calling each other names. The other group is also ignoring most of the responses and calling each other names. My mind has definitely been changed!!

All these safety nerds telling me I shouldn't go climbing because of the mass epidemic that has shut down the world economy with a totally unknowable timeline. SMH. I just like to climb.

WoW.  Let's review:

group 1. #staythefuckhome - do not go climbing for any reason, do not leave your house and it's immediate environs.
group 2. #fuckthehelloff       -  DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO.  I HAVE LOCAL ACCESS TO ROCK NO ONE EVER TOUCHES!
   vs.
group 3. #behaveresponsibly - there is a way to go about climbing responsibly in the pandemic, but it seems most people aren't doing it.  

What is my opinion of climbing responsibly?

#1. Don't go to out-of-area gas stations or restaurants.  
#2. Maintain social distance at the crags
#3. SHARED SURFACES ARE RISKY!  We don't know what risk, but it's non-zero.  The more popular the crag/climb, the higher the risk.
#4. If you fuck up and need SAR, you might be the last person to get rescued for a while.  DON'T FUCK UP.

Is this unfair given the current climate?

Jim Bouldin wrote:

Good point; I wasn't even thinking so much about RNAse activity as much as UV degradation, on both topics of which I imagine there is a fairly massive literature, generally, some of it entirely relevant.

UV probably won't do much if anything.  A high dose of UVC will nuke SARS-CoV (and probably will do the same with SARS-Cov-2), but the amount of UVC that makes it through the atmosphere is pretty small.  

Tammy Gueterman wrote:
There are ways to climb that have essentially zero impact on anyone in terms of contact and transmission. There are still ways to climb where chance of burdening society should you mess up is essentially the same as any other day.  [....] Live and let live, in all senses of the phrase.

Look, any other day, I'd fully agree. Whatever I choose to risk for myself is my business alone. I'm the first to jump a fence if I don't think anyone is actually watching and if I consider that fence is there for stupid reasons anyways.

But we're not "same as any other day". It has nothing to do with being, on the grand scheme of things, a mild annoyance to a bunch of rescuer should you fuck up. The hospitals are/will soon be drowned in friggin ICU patient. I'm not necessarily saying "don't climb at all", but at the very least be more conservative than usual if you do, and climb local. E.g. in case of a fuck up, the hospital you end up in will be the same as if you were at home.

Personally, I'd be completely OK if all SARS team would be realocated to other tasks and not rescuing people in the outdoors anymore. In that case I'm fine with whoever climbing. If they're willing do to it on their own and manage their own shit if things go sideways, then whatever.

But this isn't any other day - it's time climbers wake up to that fact as well as anyone else.  Nonsense about climbing being a selfish pursuit etc... has nothing to do with a calculation about climbing or not. Same as I couldn't justify to my better half cheating on her "coz, you know, I'm just an asshole, can't help it", climbers can't hide being some self-made image to justify unethical decisions.

This isn't live & let live anymore - and even selfish bastards like us need to wake the f*&* up about that at some point.