Go slower and bring more gear

Carolina wrote:
Also if you gonna bring allot of extra heavy shit with you into the mountains, thats ok, but don't put that stuff in your partners pack without asking them first.  

Franck Vee wrote: I agree.

Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast.

At any rate, for most of us, I feel like the determining factor between success & failure isn't so much a grams (or pounds) of gear saved or protections not placed/used. Non-professional climbers sometimes feel like the week-end cyclist buying an 8k$ bike to improve his performance. Which perhaps would make a difference for a top-end athlete, but seems like a misplaced investment for most.

And I don't mean that to imply that our personal accomplishment don't matter. I'm just as proud of what I accomplish in my climbing, even if it's not world shattering. I'm even prouder if I can get there without cutting too many corners.

I hate that slow is smooth crap. 

Bill Lawry wrote: No need to unknowingly put gear in partners packs.

Rocks.

That’s a good joke Bill, to keep things light and fun on the trail. Have seen someone hike all day with a n extra rock

Carolina wrote:

That’s a good joke Bill, to keep things light and fun on the trail. Have seen someone hike all day with a n extra rock

... and I’ll concede that our lighter sisters/brothers necessarily have a different definition of what ‘adequate’ gear means. 

Rich,

So I'm not going to respond point by point, folks can read your excellent comments and arrive at their own conclusions.  There is, however, one comment that saddened me a bit because it seemed as if you were veering into a personal attack.

you’re over thinking it or perhaps I’m poor at explaining myself in any event there was nothing that was meant personally much less an attack. The elder statesman was what it seems to me that many on here regard you as.  You’re posts are well thought out, well written and concise, usually informative regardless of whether I agree or disagree with the content or opinion,
    I deeply apologize if you were put out or somehow insulted , attacking people on the internet isn’t anything I’d ever intentionally do..... not the way I operate .  It’s also largely the reason I never bother to post... 

  Like I said, it’s my two cents and thats exactly what my opinion is worth..... hence my point that while we’re all entitled to an opinion anyone is free to reject it and substitute their own.   I don’t claim to be right or have any sort of moral higher ground.  I do what works for me and my climbing crew, I’m under no illusion that I’ve got it all figured out or anyone should do what I do let alone emulate it.

  As far as more balanced perspective in theory sure but in reality I think you’ll find those that choose to pursue X probably believe they are reasonable and balanced or it’s at least a well thought out calculated risk.  At least that’s been my experience.  ....or at least until the fallen chips dictate otherwise.

cheers

MD 

SR

Mr Dimitri, sir, The blond woman with the 2 big black dogs from the middle of the woods says hello!

  I’d like to blame it on the jet lag or even the wine infused lunch but I’m drawing a blank....sorry, yikes!

And thank you for your thoughtful & thought-provoking post(This forum has become a near waste-land
 so this was like an oasis of inspiration in a desert of nonsense

thanks but as you can see there’s limits for these forums from thin skinned climbers kittens to hurt feelings... I should know better then to reply to these things... in any event nice you got something out of it, some will, some won’t at the end of the day it‘s not all that important..... but hurt feelings is never my intention 
  so, give me a hint, dogs names? Friends of Spartacus...... or if you’re a government spy and its top secret validmd it’s an aol account..... 

Carolina....

Also if you gonna bring allot of extra heavy shit with you into the mountains, thats ok, but don't put that stuff in your partners pack without asking them first.

at the risk of ignorance really?  That happened to you...?  

Darrell Cornick wrote:

I hate that slow is smooth crap. 

Cat is animal. Animal is dog. 

But it's often true. Do the same thing twice instead of 15% slower once and you're not saving anything. That and lots of folks confuse looking like you're in a rush and actuallyget shit done fast.

Bring more gear and go slow so more can be booty-ed   

Thanks for recommending the other perspective from Twight's trip with Mark Jenkins Kelly! I empathized with Jenkins quite a bit :)

https://www.outsideonline.com/1888201/companions-misery

MDimitri . wrote: Carolina....

Also if you gonna bring allot of extra heavy shit with you into the mountains, thats ok, but don't put that stuff in your partners pack without asking them first.

at the risk of ignorance really?  That happened to you...?  

Yes. Same guy also drank water from my wife’s camelback on 2 occasions without asking permission.  She caught him the first time and I caught him the second.  My wife and I first realized the other had this encounter when we were reminiscing about the trip later.  

Franck Vee wrote:

But it's often true. Do the same thing twice instead of 15% slower once and you're not saving anything. That and lots of folks confuse looking like you're in a rush and actuallyget shit done fast.

While rappelling multi-pitch routes, I constantly waste time retrieving ropes tangled in bushes or blown off into neighboring gullies by wind. I should just spend a little time stacking the rope neatly for a quality rope throw or saddlebagging the ropes.  Maybe one day I'll learn...

I love to go ultralight backpacking. One time we had a 100 and change mile loop in the backcountry of Yos in the Red peak pass area. It snowed unexpectedly and we spent 3 days in snow and low teens temps in ultra light gear. It sucked. frozen trail runners every morning. frozen water. sleeping on top of my tarp tent and backpack because my sleeping pad was a half pad and not very good in that low of temps... I just remember hitting the top of Red Peak Pass in waist deep snow and taking one look back at one of the most beautiful vistas in the Sierras and then just dropping over the other side. I just did not care anymore about the gorgeous views, all I wanted was to get out. The 4th day we got about 10 miles in and saw the trail sign that said 15 miles to the Valley and just put our heads down and walked out. We were so done.

I still go Ultra light but I try to not let weight get in the way of preparing for conditions.

For the record both me and my buddy got frost bite on our feet. Mine was not too bad, mainly tips of my smaller toes. He can't feel part of one of his feet about 6 years later.

Still an awesome trip.

I dunno, it seems like people with too much gear are over-thinking it, and become less good, less strategic, at placing.

People as a whole are a mixed lot.

Here is an exchange from a couple a years ago on Liberty Cap (sub summit of Rainier).

Kids: How y'all doing?

Old Guys: Good

Kids: What did ya come up?

Old Guys: Sunset Ridge

Kids: Nice!!

Old Guys: Yourselves?

Kids: Liberty Ridge from the Winthrop

Old Guys: Nice!! Good route we did it decades ago.

Later ... as we all head to summit late in the day.

Old Guys: Ya got bivy gear?

Kids: Yeah we are gonna bivy on top

Old Guys: Cool, we're gonna bivy on top too.

All stagger off to the summit to bivy as everyone is knackered ...

Good times were had by all.

The point is, two groups, two approaches, both were happy with their ascent. It is all a balance.

Jakob Melchior wrote:

you should re-read what happened.

Pghm report 

https://www.emelieforsberg.com/being-rescued/

what did I miss?

rgold wrote: Efficiency can be critical, but the "speed=safety"  and "light is right" mantras have been overplayed for years, with practices by elite climbers on intense cutting-edge projects transported willy-nilly to ordinary endeavors, where the added risks far outweigh the purported benefits.  The journalistic climbing world is only just starting to take notice: https://gripped.com/routes/its-time-to-slow-down-in-the-mountains/ .  

The ever-increasing availability of rescue services seems to have encouraged this trend, with people going too light to survive conditions that are gnarly but far from unusual and then calling in the cavalry when the perfect conditions they counted on don't materialize. And it isn't just gumbies who fall into this trap.   Sure, you can overdo the gear and thereby make things harder,  and you can doom your endeavor with endless minor "safety"  rufus practices, but it seems to me that the trends are running the other way.  It is one thing to know how to go light and be fast, but it is another to grasp when such tactics are genuinely called-for, and when you are just layering on risk for virtually no benefit.

And there is the idea of smelling the roses. You can be in so much of a rush that you don't have a chance to appreciate where you are until after you're no longer there, at which point memory becomes primary, with in-the-moment contemplation and appreciation treated as unaffordable luxuries.

I don't mean that to imply that our personal accomplishment don't matter. I'm just as proud of what I accomplish in my climbing, even if it's not world shattering. I'm even prouder if I can get there without cutting too many corners.

Kelly Cordes wrote:

Howdy Buck, no "could-be" about it, it's definitely written by Twight. It's a well-known article from that era, and ran not only in Climbing magazine but was reprinted in Twight's book, "Kiss or Kill." Also, his author byline is shown right up top, beneath the title :). The Mark he's referring to in the article is Mark Jenkins -- they didn't get along so well on their 2000 trip. Jenkins wrote a terrific article about that trip, was published in Outside, I'm pretty certain -- worth looking up, and provides a drastically different perspective than Twight's. In fact, if I remember right, it would be a wonderful addition to this thread, for balance. Suffice to say, the two Marks had very different personalities (not a surprise to those who know them both!). 

Just found the article you are refering to outsideonline.com/1888201/c…  
Needless to say, Jenkins seems to be a much nicer guy that the other one...

For long routes I typically pack light and move slow. I call it light and slow. It's all the disadvantages of both style.

It's what all the hardmen are doing.