Rock Art Disrespected at Josh!

Don P. Morris wrote:

The question was posed with respect to spray painting over the symbols, which  certainly damages them and you never answered that question.  I certainly agree that it is possible to climb near rock art, or many other resources, for that matter, and inflict no harm.  Problems arise as the crowds become bigger.

Who was ever talking about spray painting over any cave doodles? I wasn't.

Please remember that we are talking about restrictions in an area established to preserve its natural and cultural values, which definitely include rock art.  outdoor recreation is not only permitted, but encouraged.  That doesn't mean that rock climbers have unrestricted access all the to every thing.  There are seasonal closures, to all recreational and commercial activities, in  many, if not most parks for the benefit of plants and animals residing and breeding therein.

Yes, and if something is to be restricted or preserved there should be a clear logic for doing so, simply finding it "interesting" isn't a valid reason to shut it down, I think many people would agree.

I have climbed some, not a lot, at Joshua Tree, and I never encountered a route near rock art.  For that matter I climbed for five years at Canyon de Chelly, with a huge number of archaeological sites and rock art panels, and i never came close to treading on either.  Remember that the point of the national Park system is preservation of resources (for the benefit if this and future generations is the usual phrase).  So please think of the impacts of your activities within the parks and please endeavor to leave no trace.

Otherwise you may meet a ranger handing you a very awkward and expensive piece of paper.

This is the NPS mission statement: 

"The National Park Service preserves unimpaired the natural and cultural resources and values of the National Park System for the enjoyment, education, and inspiration of this and future generations. The Park Service cooperates with partners to extend the benefits of natural and cultural resource conservation and outdoor recreation throughout this country and the world." 

Kinda vague, don't ya think? What are "natural and cultural resources"? What is "outdoor recreation"? Who gets to decide? The NPS decides, that's who and all I want to know is, What is the logic for blocking access to these climbing routes? Is there archeological work to be done there? Nope. Is there something to be learned from the cave doodle? Apparently not. Do people come and worship it? Negative. Is it important to anyone besides a few curious looky loos?

BTW, this is just a huge troll. Thanks for playing. Plenty of routes to climb without disturbing the culture heritage of people our forefathers literally slaughtered. The least we could do is stay off some of them. However, watch out for your government telling you what to do with no substance behind their logic and a little compromise from preservationists would make sense. Stay 50ft away?! it what world does that make sense?!

NESteve wrote: ...

Kettle? Yeah this is the pot calling.

No. You are so wrong!

"Kinda vague, don't ya think? What are "natural and cultural resources"? What is "outdoor recreation"? Who gets to decide? The NPS decides, that's who and all I want to know is, What is the logic for blocking access to these climbing routes? Is there archeological work to be done there? Nope. Is there something to be learned from the cave doodle? Apparently not. Do people come and worship it? Negative. Is it important to anyone besides a few curious looky loos?

BTW, this is just a huge troll. Thanks for playing. Plenty of routes to climb without disturbing the culture heritage of people our forefathers literally slaughtered. The least we could do is stay off some of them. However, watch out for your government telling you what to do with no substance behind their logic and a little compromise from preservationists would make sense. Stay 50ft away?! it what world does that make sense?! "
Thiis is a democracy, after all, and elected officials have the final say.  You have a congressperson and two senators who are anxious to get your support.  Contact them and explain your side of the problem.  When they take up your cause and their inquiry hits the office of the park involved, it will get real exciting, especially if you have valid points.

However, i strongly suspect, sad to say, that you most likely do not.  you most likely paid no attention to the public meetings held prior to the action you are complaining about.  But anyway, Congress appropriates the money that pays the salaries and keeps the park and other preserves running.  If you are complaining about a state holding, talk to your state reps - same process.  Believe me, it does work, especially if you have a valid point.  Government officials usually try their best, but no one is perfect, certainly not you or me.

Don P. Morris wrote: "Kinda vague, don't ya think? What are "natural and cultural resources"? What is "outdoor recreation"? Who gets to decide? The NPS decides, that's who and all I want to know is, What is the logic for blocking access to these climbing routes? Is there archeological work to be done there? Nope. Is there something to be learned from the cave doodle? Apparently not. Do people come and worship it? Negative. Is it important to anyone besides a few curious looky loos?

BTW, this is just a huge troll. Thanks for playing. Plenty of routes to climb without disturbing the culture heritage of people our forefathers literally slaughtered. The least we could do is stay off some of them. However, watch out for your government telling you what to do with no substance behind their logic and a little compromise from preservationists would make sense. Stay 50ft away?! it what world does that make sense?! "
Thiis is a democracy, after all, and elected officials have the final say.  You have a congressperson and two senators who are anxious to get your support.  Contact them and explain your side of the problem.  When they take up your cause and their inquiry hits the office of the park involved, it will get real exciting, especially if you have valid points.

However, i strongly suspect, sad to say, that you most likely do not.  you most likely paid no attention to the public meetings held prior to the action you are complaining about.  But anyway, Congress appropriates the money that pays the salaries and keeps the park and other preserves running.  If you are complaining about a state holding, talk to your state reps - same process.  Believe me, it does work, especially if you have a valid point.  Government officials usually try their best, but no one is perfect, certainly not you or me.

Nah, I don't care enough to make a stink. Besides, I think Robert nailed it on what happens when climbers try and talk to park officials.

Tradiban wrote:

Nah, I don't care enough to make a stink. Besides, I think Robert nailed it on what happens when climbers try and talk to park officials.

Well, that says it all.  it is unfortunate that you don't care enough, because caring ,involved citizens are what makes progress and intelligent management possible.  Approach management, express your concerns, and state your case.  Running a park, especially one with multiple resources, can be tricky, and there will be winners and losers.

In the case of Hueco Tanks State Historic Site, about which I learned a bit from googling last night, it exists to protect and show to the public (and preserve for the future) the rock art.  Rock climbing is also a permitted activity.  It doesn't seem illogical that rock climbing might be curtailed in order to protect the prime resource.  I see that much of the rock art is accessible by guided tours only, suggesting a certain amount of fragility.  Guided tours are pretty standard in that situation.

When you talk to the park, it helps if you come on like a reasonably mature adult, not like a spoiled brat

Don P. Morris wrote:

Well, that says it all.  it is unfortunate that you don't care enough, because caring ,involved citizens are what makes progress and intelligent management possible.  Approach management, express your concerns, and state your case.  Running a park, especially one with multiple resources, can be tricky, and there will be winners and losers.

In the case of Hueco Tanks State Historic Site, about which I learned a bit from googling last night, it exists to protect and show to the public (and preserve for the future) the rock art.  Rock climbing is also a permitted activity.  It doesn't seem illogical that rock climbing might be curtailed in order to protect the prime resource.  I see that much of the rock art is accessible by guided tours only, suggesting a certain amount of fragility.  Guided tours are pretty standard in that situation.

When you talk to the park, it helps if you come on like a reasonably mature adult, not like a spoiled brat

Don, I don't have a cause besides anarchy. Marc tried to warn ya.

I think you're mostly right but in the case of Hueco the preservationists have gone overboard, ergo Robert's frustration. Surely there can be a logical compromise?!

Hey Tradiban/Nick, let's try a game, I'll say "why shouldn't I vandalize your property." You start listing things, and I'll be the douchebag doing mental gymnastics to why its OK.

Greg Davis wrote: Hey Tradiban/Nick, let's try a game, I'll say "why shouldn't I vandalize your property." You start listing things, and I'll be the douchebag doing mental gymnastics to why its OK.

Sure. I'll play. Because it's private property and the owner makes the rules.

Tradiban wins again!

Tradiban wrote:

Sure. I'll play. Because it's private property and the owner makes the rules.

Tradiban wins again!

Private property? No sir, you only own it right now. You'll eventually sell it and it will no longer be yours, so who cares?

I think your fence is kinda gross needs to be pulled down so animals can roam better.

Greg Davis wrote:

Private property? No sir, you only own it right now. You'll eventually sell it and it will no longer be yours, so who cares?

I think your fence is kinda gross needs to be pulled down so animals can roam better.

Who says Tradiban owns property?  You're giving him too much credit.

This thread is a terrible way to start the weekend but I read almost all of it anyway.

Robert Hernandez wrote:

This statement proves you have never been to a meeting to discussing climbing access and nothing more.  You should attend one. You might learn something and become a more informed person. They are filled with hundreds of people who all personally want different things, and my proposition is we can learn to share a resource without destroying it.  

Your position is that I shouldn't care about what I want? Great argument.

I have talked to the park and been involved with these ongoing situations for several years, where were you?  Googling stuff doesn't mean you understand the issue, that much is clear from your response.  That's why I brought up Mushroom boulder. You don't know what it is, why it was closed, or what kind of discussions were had. There is no rock art on Mushroom boulder, and once again you failed to understand the basic situation being discussed.    

I am sorry you don't care enough about climbing to inform yourself more than a casual googling, and your insistence that you understand what you are clearly ignorant of is what divides our community and allows for more restrictions to be put in place.

You are absolutely right.  I am completely ignorant of the situation concerning Mushroom Rock while you are in complete command of all the data. Would it be too much to ask for you to provide useful information that will enlighten us.  If you could, it would be nice to have the other side of the story, but that might be too much to ask.

I have been in lots of meetings where actions affecting conflicting usages were discussed.  Sometimes there were reasonable compromises that were developed and sometimes one side won, and the other lost.  That's life.  What should win are the resources, especially those central to the area's existence.

You have several times enlightened us with your opinion of "ivory Tower" archaeologist.  I would agree that there are probably some who closely resemble your stereotype, but there are far more that are happy to bring their findings to the public.  We have numerous national Pars and National Monuments that exist for that very purpose.  Even Yosemite Valley has a museum exhibits whic discuss the human history of the valley and there is an archaeologist on staff.  On any of my digs, some of which worked for several seasons, we always welcomed the public and were happy to provide tours and discuss our findings.  I am pretty sure that most of my colleagues are the same way.  Even now, in retirement, I give regular presentations about our work with the pygmy mammoths on the Channel islands and what we are finding (and what we don't know).

Tell us all about Mushroom Rock....

Wait a tick...did you say “Pygmy Mammoths”?

Apparently the owls over on Intersection Rock get less respect than ancient faded cave doodles!
​https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/118616210/intersection-rock-and-patagonia-pile-temporarily-closed​​​

Not Hobo Greg wrote:

1. That is not for you alone to decide. It's all opinion. You actually said so on page one, you said and I quote, "Art is in the eye of the beholder." Are you getting so bad at trolling that you managed to contradict yourself within the same thread?

2. Lots of cave art IS part of some annual ceremony. Think about 'glyphs that align with solstices or other astronomic events. I can't think of anything more annual  than a summer or winter solstice. As for its significance, why do you posit that the things significant to you are more important than the things significant to other people? I for one am thoroughly more fascinated by rock art than by most modern art. But that doesn't make my opinion any more "right" than yours, nor vice versa. However, there are these places called cities, and these things called trains, where modern graffiti art can be found in abundance. Rock art, on the other hand, is rare, and the people who created it are all gone, not sure if you knew that. 

Hm, all this makes me think maybe you're not a troll at all, maybe you're just actually really, really dumb, and you are sincere in your search for answers to questions that most adults have already figured out. Yes, you should respect rock art closures (sorry there's only 8,000 other routes in J Tree without rock art nearby in addition to the perhaps 20 that are closed for art, what a fucking bummer man). 

So you are in favor of preserving the new modern rock art?

GoT eM

Greg Davis wrote: GoT eM

Hook line and cinder block

Not Hobo Greg wrote:

It’s like you don’t even comprehend what I’m saying. You’re like a flat earther, given all this evidence, you continue to ask the same question that’s already been answered.

Well Greg, how do you feel about ancient cave doodles closing three routes while real live owls with hearts and souls only get two routes to themselves? Comprehend that!

Tradiban wrote:

Well Greg, how do you feel about ancient cave doodles closing three routes while real live owls with hearts and souls only get two routes to themselves? Comprehend that!

Even for an obvious troll post, that’s one of the most idiotic things you’ve ever said. 

Its as if climbing choss is more important than history or lil' birdies. Crazy world eh?