Cleaning rocks and working on heights without grigri

I can not believe that i've been dragged back into this site of mediocrity

pre Gri-Gri?
 
First; A person belaying? mostly only because you were pursuing a ground-up first ascent.  Otherwise, no, not if there was masses of junk to send raining down.

 Second; if you were 'cleaning' a pitch of lichens & dirt, moss, trees, you were also trundling blocks.

What I know from my parent's exploits that started in the US* in the late 50's, & what I did well into the late 80s; was some variation of top-down cleaning.  This always went on in private/secret, the 'most-pure'(macho) style of ground-up was the gold standard but many of us, where it was possible, went top-down, taking all sorts of tools that often included pry-bars & carjacks.

Fix a line put your figure8 on that line rap down cross the device tie a gnot with a 'bight' clip a 'biner to the loop & to below the "8"
 if you were going to need to go back up you would use a combination of Klimhiest/Pussic gnot for both your hands & feet

Chris Small wrote:

1. Arborists use a ton of different  friction knots and devices to ascend and descend ropes for work positioning. Knots at Work by Jeff Jepson is a super easy read describing lots of these methods. With a hitch climber pulley and the VT or XT friction hitch you can pretty much do everything you would use a gri gri for. 

Only really good for past vertical. On slabs it's a pain.

Cpn Dunsel wrote:

Thousands of routes were put in without a grigri.  Perhaps tens of thousands.   Grigri did not really become ubiquitous until well after 2000.  I have never used one and still do not use one and many people still develop routes without one.

We have not met.

Man, We must have had a lot of fun ~ sorry that the ravages of life have left my memory so fogged, Sticky Green Bud was A religion....

Grigri and a ropeman with a couple slings to step in make for a lightweight setup that goes up and down with very little effort to switch between ascending and descending. The issue with prussiks, ATC, etc in my opinion is the hassle of switching directions.

I F wrote: Grigri and a ropeman with a couple slings to step in make for a lightweight setup that goes up and down with very little effort to switch between ascending and descending. The issue with prussiks, ATC, etc in my opinion is the hassle of switching directions.

Well, yes but the way it used to be, bitd, was that you had a choice of 'Shunts',  Gibs' or toothed 'Jumars' which were for climbing not cleaning and one protected those things from getting damaged. Once all the mechanical rope-grab, camming devices became available not everyone saw any need to switch, we had our own ways DIALED. 

uh? Mees, sorry that you think  that very hard climbing only started after the invention of sticky rubber.   5.13 was climbed in EBs
I  can't point out any examples of the places that were BOSHED (battery-power-hammer-drill grid bolted on rap.)
Climbs sprouted up on cliffs all over the country; in New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, Colorado, Z'Uhta & New Jersey to name just a few.

Suburban Roadside wrote: I can not believe that i've been dragged back into this site of mediocrity

pre Gri-Gri?
 
First; A person belaying? mostly only because you were pursuing a ground-up first ascent.  Otherwise, no, not if there was masses of junk to send raining down.

 Second; if you were 'cleaning' a pitch of lichens & dirt, moss, trees, you were also trundling blocks.

What I know from my parent's exploits that started in the US* in the late 50's, & what I did well into the late 80s; was some variation of top-down cleaning.  This always went on in private/secret, the 'most-pure'(macho) style of ground-up was the gold standard but many of us, where it was possible, went top-down, taking all sorts of tools that often included pry-bars & carjacks.

Fix a line put your figure8 on that line rap down cross the device tie a gnot with a 'bight' clip a 'biner to the loop & to below the "8"
 if you were going to need to go back up you would use a combination of Klimhiest/Pussic gnot for both your hands & feet

Thanks for that massive knowledge drop bruh

Mike Lane wrote:

Thanks for that massive knowledge drop bruh

You're welcome, Any time. 

Ma Ja wrote:
Agreed. I would point out though, I think the original comment meant the belay slave just stayed up top and lowered you down, not acted like a target for falling debris down below. That would be absolutely idiotic.

So  . . . . ? Are you calling Ground Up 1st ascents,  drilling from stances, hooks, (or while hanging from direct aid) idiotic? half of California's proudest climbs were done that way

I want to take a swing at that dead horse too. Just get a gri-gri. Seriously.

Ma Ja wrote:

Developers are about as rare as they come these days. Trying to find someone to be a belay slave for putting up routes is definitely a thing of the past.

For real.. Getting belay slaves for developing is a great way to destroy your friendships. Your friends want to climb, not freeze to death while being a target for falling rocks and being rained on by lichen. If they wanted to develop, they'd be developing already. Don't drag your poor friends into our masochistic world.

Brandon Fields wrote:

For real.. Getting belay slaves for developing is a great way to destroy your friendships. Your friends want to climb, not freeze to death while being a target for falling rocks and being rained on by lichen. If they wanted to develop, they'd be developing already. Don't drag your poor friends into our masochistic world.

Agreed. I would point out though, I think the original comment meant the belay slave just stayed up top and lowered you down, not acted like a target for falling debris down below. That would be absolutely idiotic.

Ma Ja wrote:

Agreed. I would point out though, I think the original comment meant the belay slave just stayed up top and lowered you down, not acted like a target for falling debris down below. That would be absolutely idiotic.

Ah, you're right. That's what i get for skimming. :p

The cool thing about a normal belay when you're cleaning is the cleaner doesn't have to worry about rope management and protecting the rope from trundling choss. The idea that gri gris make development possible is pretty far fetched.

Mees wrote: oh really? i don't think a huge number of bolted (sport)  routes were developed prior to the Gri.  name some areas that were rap bolted,  where a huge number (100s of bolted routes) of routes went in w/o the gri. this would have to be prior to  91 or so, because pretty much everyone at that point on,  used the gri .  I don't think  i've ever met a developer since the early 90's that didn't have one or similar device.   so there's a good chance if you don't use one today you don't know wtf you are doing.   

The Gri-Gri may have come out in 1991 but was not widely adopted until years latter. In the mean time people were developing 1000s of sport routes in places like Smith Rock, American Fork, City of Rocks, New River Gorge. And there are plenty of people out there still developing routes that do not use one.

Wow, the history of outdated belay devices is so interesting and enlightening!

It's like a trip to pioneer museum where you see how they used horses to pull wagons and stuff

Mees wrote:

since your obtuse....

Classic

They key takeaway here is not about the benefits of the Gri Gri, or alternative methods, but that if you are a route developer,  you should not need to ask such basic methodology advice on MP.

This is not meant as a snide slag on the OP, just cautionary common sense.  There are a lot of technical subtleties involved in quality route development, and I hope you are working with experienced and proven mentors.  Sticking bolts in rock that others will trust their lives and limbs to should not be just figured out via trial and error on decent rock.  

Mark Pilate wrote: They key takeaway here is not about the benefits of the Gri Gri, or alternative methods, but that if you are a route developer,  you should not need to ask such basic methodology advice on MP.

This is not meant as a snide slag on the OP, just cautionary common sense.  There are a lot of technical subtleties involved in quality route development, and I hope you are working with experienced and proven mentors.  Sticking bolts in rock that others will trust their lives and limbs to should not be just figured out via trial and error on decent rock.  

Devil's Advocate:

I'd say the vast majority of people getting into developing are going to try really hard to get things right and not go out and waste a bunch of money. I'd also point out that there are plenty of routes out there that are bolted poorly by people who've been in the game for a while. So, if you have some common sense, you can get it done right if you take your time and dont just go suicide bolt your first route. Go up and down a handful of times with a chalk ball, and hopefully you'll figure it out. And dont put your fist line next to the crag's most classic route.

This bullshit.
Easier than typing that all again.
Shittons of routes went in Colorado pre Gri Gri.
The majority of Shelf. All of Penetente. NTM, Castlewood, a lot of Clear Creek.

Gri on one rope and CAMP goblin on another, if you really insist on needing two lines.. bonus you can TR solo on the goblin. I do this sometimes on sharp terrain. Think of it more like work line and safety line. (Rope access stuff). But if you are fighting getting s grigri, you're sure as hell not going to cough up for a goblin. Also, anyone who feels safer on "two lines" when they are rapping on ATC if both aren't fixed and just running through anchors need to think it through again if one line severs. 

Decent troll btw

Mike Lane wrote:
Shittons of routes went in Colorado pre Gri Gri.
The majority of Shelf. All of Penetente. NTM, Castlewood, a lot of Clear Creek.

Now Mike, don’t be obtuse.  Mees wasn’t talking about sport climbing backwaters on the periphery like you listed.  He was talking about Iowa.