Bolting scary run out sport routes

Tradiban wrote: Ain't it funny that ya don't hear a bunch of Trad developers begging for recognition? It's a whole lot more risky and difficult to ground up a route than it is to rap your way in.

What's a trad developer? Prolific first ascentionist? I think its funny that there aren't many folks from the northeast chiming in... If you're from or regularly climb NY, NH, NC you're probably chuckling on the inside. amiright or amiright? Popcorn!

@Lena and Jon

I'd say you owe/give respect to the developer the moment you fall, or 'take' on a bolt and it doesnt rip out of the wall. If you dont, then it's hard to believe you're clipping bolts that you didnt put in yourself.

And I am not asking for money, I'm saying if you aren't out putting in the work, or subsidizing the workers, then you are simply a taker.

I enjoy the process, mainly becasue I'm not your average developer who is bolting whole crags and moving on. I bolt routes I find attractive as projects for myself, basically supplementing other developers' work. I sent 2 this weekend that are stellar 5 star routes. I hope you get to climb them one day. I only have a few more left before I'm out of my own projects. The next 3 may take me 2+ years to actually send though. I love it. More people SHOULD be doing this, it's extremely rewarding, even with the goons who have nothing good to say about anything... And, I respect all developers. The comment about slab development is basically that it's significantly easier. Still a ton of work brushing and cleaning, but it's not the same as having 20 pieces in the wall going up and down 4+ times. If you want to feel some real pain, try bolting some steep stuff, with glue ins, and not wave bolts. Let me know how it goes. Hit up Marco Chabot for Totems if you're struggling, they're clutch.

Al Pine wrote:
What's a trad developer? 

Plate tectonics

Run-out sport?    Umm... no

Al Pine wrote:
What's a trad developer? 

Some poor bastard who has chosen to live somewhere with heavily vegitated and dirt filled cracks. This sad soul spends their weekends excavating said moss filled cracks with a whittled down nut tool and sawed-off toilet brush. May also enjoy gardening...

Ma Ja wrote: @Lena and Jon

And I am not asking for money, I'm saying if you aren't out putting in the work, or subsidizing the workers, then you are simply a tourist.

So all the people doing trail work are tourists?

And the people negotiating with landowners for access- tourists?

And donating to the Access Fund- tourists?

And picking up litter- tourists?

And posting up routes on MP for others to find and enjoy- tourists?

And all the people who brought the national forest system into existence and make it run so that you can play with your power tools- tourists?

Are all the private landowners who share their property with us tourists?

Get over yourself, you fucking tourist :-)

Mark E Dixon wrote:

So all the people doing trail work are tourists?

Nope. That's work.

And the people negotiating with landowners for access- tourists?

Nope. That's work.

And donating to the Access Fund- tourists?

Yes. That's not work.

And picking up litter- tourists?

Yes. That's just being a decent person.

And posting up routes on MP for others to find and enjoy- tourists?

Yes. That is you wasting time at work and getting paid for it.

And all the people who brought the national forest system into existence and make it run so that you can play with your power tools- tourists?

Nope. Sounds like a lot of work.

Are all the private landowners who share their property with us tourists?

That's ridiculous. They are just awesome people, but when they leave their property and go on vacation, they're probably going to be tourists somewhere.

Get over yourself, you fucking tourist :-)

;).

Ma Ja wrote: @Lena and Jon

I'd say you owe/give respect to the developer the moment you fall, or 'take' on a bolt and it doesnt rip out of the wall. If you dont, then it's hard to believe you're clipping bolts that you didnt put in yourself.

And I am not asking for money, I'm saying if you aren't out putting in the work, or subsidizing the workers, then you are simply a tourist.

You could look up the list of RRGCC donors. My name is on that list every year. And the Access fund logo next to my username is also not just for decoration. 
But even if I never donated a single dollar to climber organizations, or to rebolting efforts, even If I never helped clean routes, or carried equipment, or worked trail says, even if I really were just a tourist that you keep mentioning, I still don’t automatically owe respect to a person who placed a bolt in the rock, if they bolted a shitty route. 

If someone spent a lot of time, money, and effort, doing something badly, it doesn’t make them a hero worth respect. And a good route is a lot more than correctly placed bolts. If the bolt didn’t fail when I clipped it and fell — that is, literally, the lowest standard you could hold a bolter to. 

I fully expect that someone’s first attempts at bolting aren’t going to be a stunning display of perfection. They are trying, and learning. Good for them. Respect will maybe come later, when they do something truly worth respect. And when/if they do, they will get respect without posting in this thread and demanding one. 

There is a very long list of bolters whom I respect. But I just can’t picture Porter Jarrard, or Bill Ramsey, or Chris Snyder, or Chris Martin, or Jeff Moll, or Kenny Barker, or Rob McFall, or Ben Cassel, or... gee, I feel I should stop with the names, there is no way I could name all the people... the point is, I can’t imagine any of them ever arguing that they deserved respect simply because they placed bolts that didn’t fail. 

Another bolt was added to Country Rhoads today. Entering into the lower crux, the bolt is now at your waist rather than below your feet.

The Monument area at Smith Rock is officially closed for eagle nesting as of today until mid summer. When the area reopens you should go check out this classic well protected route.

https://www.mountainproject.com/route/117694114/country-rhoads#a_117694117

Lena chita wrote:

But even if I never donated a single dollar to climber organizations, or to rebolting efforts, even If I never helped clean routes, or carried equipment, or worked trail says, even if I really were just a tourist that you keep mentioning, I still don’t automatically owe respect to a person who placed a bolt in the rock, if they bolted a shitty route. 

If someone spent a lot of time, money, and effort, doing something badly, it doesn’t make them a hero worth respect. And a good route is a lot more than correctly placed bolts. If the bolt didn’t fail when I clipped it and fell — that is, literally, the lowest standard you could hold a bolter to. 

I fully expect that someone’s first attempts at bolting aren’t going to be a stunning display of perfection. They are trying, and learning. Good for them. Respect will maybe come later, when they do something truly worth respect. And when/if they do, they will get respect without posting in this thread and demanding one. 

It's an odd point to argue over, but I feel you are getting defensive over something I didn't really say. My intention isn't the same as you are taking it in. Originally, the conversation was about a person putting up whatever they feel like, and placing pro where ever is comfortable for them. RIght? If not, then we are on different pages completely. I say, we respect an individual who goes out and does a lot of work to make something for themselves, which ultimately ends up being a contribution to the community... I don't feel like anyone should be criticizing that effort. That's my opinion. I am also a believer that other people should be able to ask nicely, with the assumption it could go either way, to "improve" routes. It wouldn't bother me a bit if someone added bolts to a climb i've already finished, if they inquired. It'd be pretty cool.

Lightning Rod Arete is a perfect example. I've overheard 3 different party's conversations talking about moving on and not doing the route because the runout is pretty scary.  I tried to talk them into climbing it because it's one of my favorite routes of all time, all declined. The sit-down finish with that view, even if it was a shit climb, amazing. But, I've seen the fall twice now and it is horrifying. You take about a 15-20 footer into open air, but you swing right past the first ledge. Like, right past. If you have your arm or leg out, it's hitting it. So, I proposed a bolt, and it was shot down. They heard the criticism and didn't care. No big deal to me, it's not my route. Respect. I'm not talking about worshipping anyone. Just respecting their efforts.

There is a very long list of bolters whom I respect. But I just can’t picture Porter Jarrard, or Bill Ramsey, or Chris Snyder, or Chris Martin, or Jeff Moll, or Kenny Barker, or Rob McFall, or Ben Cassel, or... gee, I feel I should stop with the names, there is no way I could name all the people... the point is, I can’t imagine any of them ever arguing that they deserved respect simply because they placed bolts that didn’t fail. 

Hopefully reading the last part has you on board with the idea that I don't want your respect personally, I would only ask that you respect the work, and not criticize the style someone chooses to FA their line. Obviously, Chris has gotten enough feedback to go add more bolts to his 5 star lines, so constructive criticism is welcome with some bolters. I won't bore you with that word, so I'll say this. Don't just keep taking from the people who are giving. Be one of the givers. All I'm saying. This shit should be tax free like a HSA.

Ma Ja wrote:
I say, we respect an individual who goes out and does a lot of work to make something for themselves, which ultimately ends up being a contribution to the community... I don't feel like anyone should be criticizing that effort. That's my opinion. I am also a believer that other people should be able to ask nicely, with the assumption it could go either way, to "improve" routes. It wouldn't bother me a bit if someone added bolts to a climb i've already finished, if they inquired. It'd be pretty cool.

The bolded part is where we disagree. I think the opposite. Just because someone put in some effort doesn’t mean that the product of their effort can’t be criticized. 

”Criticize” doesn’t equal adding bolts to someone else’s route. I respect the convention that says FA decides, and would only advocate retroactively adding a bolt to a route without FA’s permission in extreme circumstances (let’s say, only if a group of experienced local developers all agree on it, and FA is not available/not responsive). It’s more of a theoretical possibility, than a real thing that happens. Most of the time, when a bolt is added later, it is done by FA himself, or with FA’s agreement. 

However, “Respect the FA” as a climbing community concept is not at all the same as “respect this specific person who does a poor job of bolting routes”. 

Lightning Rod Arete is a perfect example. I've overheard 3 different party's conversations talking about moving on and not doing the route because the runout is pretty scary.  I tried to talk them into climbing it because it's one of my favorite routes of all time, all declined. The sit-down finish with that view, even if it was a shit climb, amazing. But, I've seen the fall twice now and it is horrifying. You take about a 15-20 footer into open air, but you swing right past the first ledge. Like, right past. If you have your arm or leg out, it's hitting it. So, I proposed a bolt, and it was shot down. They heard the criticism and didn't care. No big deal to me, it's not my route. Respect. I'm not talking about worshipping anyone. Just respecting their efforts.

I still have never climbed the Lightning Rod Arete. Went there last fall at the end of the day, but a party that was on the route took too long, and by the time my friend finally got on it, and got to the top, it was getting dark, and I decided not to climb after her. 

Honestly, the comments about 5-star climbing similar to No Place Like Home initially had me excited, because No Place is one of my all-time favorites. But when we walked over to Lightning Rod, it didn’t look particularly appealing, and I’m not likely to make an effort to go there soon. But someday, maybe. At that point I would be qualified to comment on the bolting. 

Hopefully reading the last part has you on board with the idea that I don't want your respect personally, I would only ask that you respect the work, and not criticize the style someone chooses to FA their line. Obviously, Chris has gotten enough feedback to go add more bolts to his 5 star lines, so constructive criticism is welcome with some bolters. I won't bore you with that word, so I'll say this. Don't just keep taking from the people who are giving. Be one of the givers. All I'm saying. This shit should be tax free like a HSA.

You keep bringing it up... And I disagree. Being an FA gives you the power to decide where the bolts go, and the right to name a route. It doesn’t, in any way, protect your “style” from criticism. 

But yes, I respect “the office of FA”, so to speak. Which means that in some cases I respect “the office of FA”, but not FA-the-person. 

Ma Ja wrote:
 I say, we respect an individual who goes out and does a lot of work to make something for themselves, which ultimately ends up being a contribution to the community... I don't feel like anyone should be criticizing that effort. 

Seriously?! If you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Criticism is a part of life, have the confidence to back up your actions with a logical argument. If you find yourself desperately trying to justify your bolt job against criticism you might want to take a second look and accept what people are saying.

Lena chita wrote: The bolded part is where we disagree. I think the opposite. Just because someone put in some effort doesn’t mean that the product of their effort can’t be criticized. 

”Criticize” doesn’t equal adding bolts to someone else’s route. I respect the convention that says FA decides, and would only advocate retroactively adding a bolt to a route without FA’s permission in extreme circumstances (let’s say, only if a group of experienced local developers all agree on it, and FA is not available/not responsive). It’s more of a theoretical possibility, than a real thing that happens. Most of the time, when a bolt is added later, it is done by FA himself, or with FA’s agreement. 

However, “Respect the FA” as a climbing community concept is not at all the same as “respect this specific person who does a poor job of bolting routes”. 
I still have never climbed the Lightning Rod Arete. Went there last fall at the end of the day, but a party that was on the route took too long, and by the time my friend finally got on it, and got to the top, it was getting dark, and I decided not to climb after her. 

Honestly, the comments about 5-star climbing similar to No Place Like Home initially had me excited, because No Place is one of my all-time favorites. But when we walked over to Lightning Rod, it didn’t look particularly appealing, and I’m not likely to make an effort to go there soon. But someday, maybe. At that point I would be qualified to comment on the bolting. 

You keep bringing it up... And I disagree. Being an FA gives you the power to decide where the bolts go, and the right to name a route. It doesn’t, in any way, protect your “style” from criticism. 

But yes, I respect “the office of FA”, so to speak. Which means that in some cases I respect “the office of FA”, but not FA-the-person. 

Constructive criticism, telling someone your opinion about a climb is perfectly normal, and absolutely acceptable and welcome by everyone I know. Criticizing someone's style of bolting and demanding bolters follow some universal order, like keeping things "mild" with no runouts, is a completely different thing, and I think it reflects a person's ungratefulness. The effort that a bolter has put in for the community, and themselves, should be respected, whether or not I'm personaly going to feel safe on it. Regardless if you see it or not, based on your response, it sounds like we completely agree about these two points.

revans90 wrote:

you think drilling or climbing a rock deserves respect?

Drilling or climbing the rock WELL does. In my book, at least. It certainly not the only thing that deserves respect, nor is it the highest on my list of things I respect. 

But you can allocate your respect in any way you see fit. 

revans90 wrote:

you think drilling or climbing a rock deserves respect?

What do you respect?

I personally respect people who do nice things, or things I can't do, or things I find impressive.

I've never bolted a route, and I respect that. If I had, given that I like climbing, I would still respect a well bolted route.

I also respect the ability to articulate complexe thoughts in more than a handful of words, when appropriate.

Good question...

R ..E ..S ..P ..E ..C ..T.      What does it mean to me...?

Mark Pilate wrote: Good question...

R ..E ..S ..P ..E ..C ..T.      What does it mean to me...?

Id like to point out Boulderers are not included

Gumby King wrote:

Id like to point out Boulderers are not included

Boulderers have no souls, therefore are not human. Which means it's a nonsense to consider respecting boulderers.

Al Pine wrote:
What's a trad developer? Prolific first ascentionist? I think its funny that there aren't many folks from the northeast chiming in... If you're from or regularly climb NY, NH, NC you're probably chuckling on the inside. amiright or amiright? Popcorn!

You think those splitter cracks clean themselves?  Ok, maybe in the desert... but sure as hell not in the north-east.  

Chris Hatzai wrote: Another bolt was added to Country Rhoads today. Entering into the lower crux, the bolt is now at your waist rather than below your feet.

I commend the OP.  I sure thought he was seeking validation for his own opinion, but after hearing some opposition, he's gone out and added bolts.  It takes humility and a certain courage to allow your mind to be changed.