Bolting scary run out sport routes

Dave K wrote:

That's an oversimplification as there really is no "blank" rock any more insomuch that every route developed today is done in a crag with established routes, ethics, and character. In the context of this discussion, whether or not the area is a sport climbing area matters.

Nope, there is blank rock. There are new, not-developed-yet, even, never-climbed-before cliffs still waiting to be opened.

Nate’s right.  That why I install these in unobtrusive nooks at the sport crags I visit...allows climbers to light a candle and reflect on those who have sacrificed for us all to have a better life.....then leave a small offering of cash, hardware, or weed

The FA decides. Easy as that. Everything else is ridiculous. You do not have to climb any route anywhere. It’s your decision. You have to learn to evaluate the risk you are willing to take. Every Tag on every piece of gear says that climbing is dangerous. So keep that in mind, climb what you think you can climb. Bail if you can’t, but don’t cry for more bolts. Just climb something else. Certified and safe routes are found in a gym.

I am very often scared. I bail, I grab draws, I stickclip, but sometimes I man up and just climb. 20 feet above the last bolt. And this feeling is awesome!
And sometimes I also fall and either hurt myself or have a nice ride. This is ok.

Every first ascent is a piece of art, found, imagined, cleaned, bolted, climbed. I am thankful for everyone putting in this kind of work. And I would never dare to cry for more (or less) bolts or different clipping positions. Sometimes I cannot clip comfortably because I’m too small. Sometimes I can’t clip comfortably because I’m too tall. I work around it. It’s different for everyone, there is no gold standard.

I think it’s wrong to think that rock belongs to everyone. It belongs to nobody! You do not climb a rock, but a route! And this route, though ON a rock, probably public land, comes with some sort of copyright. It’s a creation by the person who thought it up and realized it. If you want to repeat it, then you have to play by the rules established by this person.
Or toprope it.

Mike Shorts wrote:..... then you have to play by the rules established by this person.
Or toprope it.

Like the person who put it up?  Get over yourself.  

Mike Shorts wrote: The FA decides. Easy as that. Everything else is ridiculous. You do not have to climb any route anywhere. It’s your decision. You have to learn to evaluate the risk you are willing to take. Every Tag on every piece of gear says that climbing is dangerous. So keep that in mind, climb what you think you can climb. Bail if you can’t, but don’t cry for more bolts. Just climb something else. Certified and safe routes are found in a gym.

I am very often scared. I bail, I grab draws, I stickclip, but sometimes I man up and just climb. 20 feet above the last bolt. And this feeling is awesome!
And sometimes I also fall and either hurt myself or have a nice ride. This is ok.

Every first ascent is a piece of art, found, imagined, cleaned, bolted, climbed. I am thankful for everyone putting in this kind of work. And I would never dare to cry for more (or less) bolts or different clipping positions. Sometimes I cannot clip comfortably because I’m too small. Sometimes I can’t clip comfortably because I’m too tall. I work around it. It’s different for everyone, there is no gold standard.

I think it’s wrong to think that rock belongs to everyone. It belongs to nobody! You do not climb a rock, but a route! And this route, though ON a rock, probably public land, comes with some sort of copyright. It’s a creation by the person who thought it up and realized it. If you want to repeat it, then you have to play by the rules established by this person.
Or toprope it.

Unfortunately, a lot of people don’t see it this way either.. 

Im guessing because the mindset now of how accessible climbing is, it’s easy to look at all climbing/climbing areas with that same eye.

I keep reading all these rants and all i can hear is Ronnie Chieng‘s voice, PRIME NOW! PRIME NOW!! PRIMMMMMEEEEE NOWWWWWW!!!!

TR Fellhung wrote:

This is absolutely correct. The same is true for graffiti at the crags.

I am grateful to those who take the time and expense to create their art on a bare piece of rock. Spray paint is not cheap!

Once it is there, nobody has the right to alter it. The first artist decides, as their work comes with a copyright. Sometimes I don't really like or understand a graffiti artists work, but it is up to me to look deeper. It’s different for everyone, there is no gold standard. It’s a creation by the person who thought it up and realized it. Everything else is ridiculous.

If you don't like it, don't look at it!

PRIME NOW

If a developer develops and doesnt spray about developing is it even developed?

PRIME NOW

TR Fellhung wrote:

0/10

Didn't know who you were, but just looked up your history of route development.

Rap bolting lines, not even climbing them, red tag, and moving on with your drill to the next squeeze job.

Spraying about being a route developer. In a state park no less.

What you call route development is no better than what the shitheads with spray paint do.

Your type is a cancer on climbing.

Hard week at school, I take it?

=====================================

I'm in the respect the crag's etho mentality, but other than that do what you want. Scary runouts on obvious beginner's crag that otherwise have 3 feet apart bolts would probably be out of place. I believe as well people have a personal responsability about their own safety and evaluating risk for themselves, at least outdoors. No one ever said you had to top every single sport line you attempt. Making a route dangerous on purpose is probably questionnable (again, unless it fits in the etho of the place), but I see no problem with running it out. Those who disagree can climb other lines.

Give it the personnality you see fit!

As a general comment, funny how so many people claim some sort of right to decide what sport climbing is, or isn't.

On either side of the argument, it's still only just their perspective of what sport climbing is, or isn't. No one gets to decide that, or to say that it is this or that. You can voice your opinion, but it is only one among many, and claiming that your definition is the right one is pretty self-centered, imo.

The definition of sport climbing is a process. It has evolved through time and continues to evolve. Routes that get put up, and how people react to them, contribute to that ongoing crowd-source thinking that keeps on defining it. If you put up something closer to the edge of the current definition, them it'll contribute to define things better.

Is a Nina William-type highball even is bouldering? Or is it a highball? Or is it solo? I don't know, but I would argue she's contributing defining what all those terms are, and are not, but there's no real final word on those matter.

Only a process...

Ma Ja wrote:

Rap bolting.

If you dont want 12a climbers on a 12a, something is wrong with you.

Who said anything about me or anyone else not wanting 12a climbers on a 12a? I have no clue what your fragment "rap bolting" means... Is that a complete thought for you? 

I DO rap bolt, and take great care to ensure the stances are optimized and the falls are safe, even though they might be scary for some. If there is a section of 11a on a 13b, and you can protect it well with an optional cam, I might not place a bolt in that 15 feet of climbing. If you're on a 13b, you should be a competent 11a climber, and that shouldn't be an issue. 

The ambiguous nature of "12a" means that not every "12a climber" can climb every "12a". 12a varies greatly from route to route and crag to crag. It helps to be over-prepared to approach this grade everywhere, in every circumstance. Climbing 12a at 13000 feet might still be 12a, but feels much harder. Climbing 12a from the 80's in JTree will feel different from a modern 12a in RR. To cover all these variations of 12a, you need to be competent way above the grade to approach them all, especially the sandbags.  

Something is definitely wrong with me, but it has nothing to do with your observations. 

Hey Chris!
Congrats on your 11 page thread, that’s not easy to start! As usual, Max said it best. 
The answer to your question lies somewhere among these routes, if you spent some time on these after the Monument closes you’d know exactly what you want. 
Dreamin
Spank the Monkey
Boy Prophet
Full Heinous
Close Shave

Greg Miller wrote: Here’s a good question how many people out of h these 11 pages have put up FAs? Just curious.

Id say I have but im pretty damn sure a reptile, mouse, squirrel or monkey probably beat me to it every time. As far as developing goes no damn monkey, lizard or squirrel beat me to it cause they dont have drills.

Jon Rhoderick wrote: Hey Chris!
Congrats on your 11 page thread, that’s not easy to start! As usual, Max said it best. 
The answer to your question lies somewhere among these routes, if you spent some time on these after the Monument closes you’d know exactly what you want. 
Dreamin
Spank the Monkey
Boy Prophet
Full Heinous
Close Shave

#WWMD

Greg Miller wrote:

I feel the same way... or think about the people that just soloed climbs because they were so easy and never documented them.

This is the thing, in the grand scheme of things, its really just bringing the rock down to your level. Its fun but no big accomplishment. Go climb a hard trad route or even be the first to do it and that is an accomplishment. Drilling bolts on rap is nothing to write home about.

Sound like there's a bunch of helmet wearing SPORT climbers at Smith!

Frank.... I will give you a clue. Sport climb = Rap bolted. Pretty EZ, no?

Everything else is climbing.

Guy Keesee wrote: Frank.... I will give you a clue. Sport climb = Rap bolted. Pretty EZ, no?

Everything else is climbing.

I see you belong to the absolutists camp (e.g. my definition is THE definition).

Historically it kinda makes sense. But then from a general perspective, it makes little sense to me to define the end result of a thing (whatever that thing is) purely in terms of the production method use and not care what it ultimately looks/feels like. Kinda like saying "well, if it's made in a factory it's a cheese cake, but if you make it's just a dessert".

Labels are still useful, in a way. It does matter that we arrive at some sort of general consensus as to what "sport climbing" or "bouldering" (or fringer terms like highball, solos etc.) are. Even if those definitions start to fray at the edges at little bit. 

All that to say I find your definition lacking.

Sport Climbing is when the route is pre-equipped with enough protection that the climber is free to focus on difficulty of movement instead of gear installation.
Usually with bolts, but if you pre equip a trad route with placed gear that makes it a sport climb for that ascent.

There doesn't need to be any sort of Authoritarian control set up to dictate how routes are bolted, even by local ethics.
An individual is free to do what s/he wants, but s/he must also contend with the consequences of that action.

Sport routes are a creation, a construction. A Trad First Ascent is an achievement of skill, not of constructing.
This is why we grant privilege to the FA. It shouldn't be extended to the sport bolter (something I've done my fair share of). We may grant those privileges anyway, but for different and individual reasons.

Alan Nelson took me and some buddies to show off his recently completed Red Slab in Clear Creek. After lowering off my second route I was emotionally exhausted and my legs were cramped up from the Elvising that comes with pulling a greasy crux move 8' feet above your last bolt. I had huge respect for him, so I didn't give him a load of shit. But I also turned down future invitations too. No big loss for him, but you get my point.

If you want to build out a runout sport route, no one is stopping you. But be prepared for community blowback and possible ostracization.

Greg Miller wrote: Here’s a good question how many people out of h these 11 pages have put up FAs? Just curious.

I've done ground-up trad FAs.  I've cleaned, developed and bolted trad and sport routes on rappel.