Girth hitch ice climbing anchors

Girth hitch seems better than sliding X because it stands a chance when the sling breaks/cuts, and it probably won't "shock load" the remaining piece if the first screw pulls.

Scenario 1: sling breaks (advantage: girth hitch)
- sliding X will unravel in a complete failure
- girth hitch will fail only if the hitch slips enough for the cut end of the sling to pass through

Scenario 2: screw pulls (slight advantage: girth hitch)
- sliding X will extend, "shock-loading" the remaining screw, but it will possibly hold and the sling remains intact
- girth hitch will not shock load the remaining piece.  The hitch could slip until the screw gets jammed up agains the hitch, where it seems likely to stop

Scenario 3: carabiner breaks (advantage: probably sliding X)
- sliding X -- basically the same as scenario 2
- girth hitch -- basically the same as scenario 1

Aside (from a non-ice climber): why are standard practices for ice any different from rock gear anchors?  Is it because you have a sea of ice and therefore many possible screw placement options?  Or is there some risk profile thing I'm not understanding?  

Its seems to me that seeing ice screws are not horizontally placed in an anchor, that they should be equalized to avoid most of the load from being taken by the shorter leg of the anchor. I personally tie my cordelette in a quad configuration. 

I prefer the clove hitch anchor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UyInC0SkGo 

It never ceases to amaze me that some think social media is a good place to 'learn' climbing and rigging techniques.  Hiring a real mountain professional may provide more context and application information than anyones Instagram snippet.

That being said, 6kN could be achieved in a worst case scenario event in a multipitch scenario, more likely on steep ice due to the frictionless environment. There is nothing wrong with tried and true methods like pre tied quads.  At times using a master carabiner has limitations.  

6kN certainly can be achieved, but only for milliseconds. The sling does not break at 6kN in a girth (or clove) hitch. The girth (or clove) hitch slips and will continue to hold a load, but the load is not continuous so it will likely only slip a few inches (don't know exactly how far it will slip, depends on the load). So if a rock severed your sling with in an inch of the girth hitch and then you also immediately took a fall producing 6kN, and then also one of your screws failed, then I guess technically in that exact unlikely scenario a quad is safer. But the rock could have also severed a quad although it would have to sever 2 pieces of webbing instead of just 1. A girth (or clove) hitch anchor is crazy fast and simple. Fast is safe sometimes.

I actually have done some testing on girth and clove hitch anchors with dyneema. Been meaning to post it to MP and will when I have more time. 

odd rune wrote: I prefer the clove hitch anchor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UyInC0SkGo 

If you read my original post, you’ll see that the guide in that exact video, Brent Peters, states that the girth hitch is a better choice than the clove hitch for this application. 

Matt Shove wrote: There is nothing wrong with tried and true methods like pre tied quads.  At times using a master carabiner has limitations.

That sums it up.  Quads are for nerds, though.

which do i enjoy more... the people who use quads, or the people who tell everybody not to use them??

JaredG wrote: 
Scenario 2: screw pulls (slight advantage: girth hitch)
- sliding X will extend, "shock-loading" the remaining screw, but it will possibly hold and the sling remains intact
- girth hitch will not shock load the remaining piece.  The hitch could slip until the screw gets jammed up agains the hitch, where it seems likely to stop

Unless the screw(s) are in worthless ice - and why would they be? - there won't be "shock loading" if one fails. If we've learned anything from screw testing, it's that they move/bend/ yield before they let go. So the load will be transferred gradually to the other screw. Further, we can hypothesize that as the load is tranferred, the creeping of the weaker screw may well cease prior to complete failure.

Nick Sweeney wrote:

If you read my original post, you’ll see that the guide in that exact video, Brent Peters, states that the girth hitch is a better choice than the clove hitch for this application. 

my bad, should've continued reading after reading the instagram post

there must be a way to win a multi-point anchor argument on the internet....
one day, I will find that way

Chris Blatchley wrote: which do i enjoy more... the people who use quads, or the people who tell everybody not to use them??

What I enjoy the most is when someone feels the urge to tell me that I should never take/use a cordellete on an alpine climb. Guess I will remain a noob forever...

When I use a girth hitched master point in an anchor I've done it with an SMC rappel/rigging ring instead of a locker.  I then use lockers through that master point.  I think the rigging ring will fit 3 or 4 standard carabiners through it in addition to the girth hitch and it's rated for 30+ kn.

Jason4Too wrote: When I use a girth hitched master point in an anchor I've done it with an SMC rappel/rigging ring instead of a locker.  I then use lockers through that master point.  I think the rigging ring will fit 3 or 4 standard carabiners through it in addition to the girth hitch and it's rated for 30+ kn.

Huge difference between a rigging plate and SMC's (rolled aluminum) rappel ring.

Gunkiemike wrote:

Huge difference between a rigging plate and SMC's (rolled aluminum) rappel ring.

This is the one I was referencing and that I carry: SMC Rigging Ring

Maybe you're thinking of this one: ​SMC Rolled Ring​​​

South Tyrollean Anchor method.

Save carabiners. Girth hitched central point carabiner.

????

Dave Olsen wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkx02ANJiDY

South Tyrollean Anchor method.

Save carabiners. Girth hitched central point carabiner.

????

Saves carabiners by threading one end of the cord directly through each piece (piton, but, thread). At the same time, avoiding any laverage of those carabiners against the rock. Then the cord is tied off with an offset overhand or packet knot. The girth hitch saves cord and time fuzzing with knots.

PS: why try to equalise 2-piece ice-screw anchors?
Vertical offset placement is ideal for series connection.

Fran M wrote:

Saves carabiners by threading one end of the cord directly through each piece (piton, but, thread). At the same time, avoiding any laverage of those carabiners against the rock. Then the cord is tied off with an offset overhand or packet knot. The girth hitch saves cord and time fuzzing with knots.

PS: why try to equalise 2-piece ice-screw anchors?
Vertical offset placement is ideal for series connection.

So my questions are, is the girth hitch sufficient if one leg of the anchor is cut and is an overhand knot as shown resistant enough to rolling for a high fall factor?

Dave Olsen wrote:

So my questions are, is the girth hitch sufficient if one leg of the anchor is cut and is an overhand knot as shown resistant enough to rolling for a high fall factor?

Yes, they don't slip or roll much if at all when loaded suddenly (fall test) as opposed to a pull test where the load increases slowly in small steps.

Tests in the Padova tower showed minimal slippage for the girth hitch (1-3cm) with sudden loads between 7-10KN. (One leg of the anchor left free hanging with girth hitch at master point)

Thanks Fran-

I like the girth hitch idea. Use shorter slings, easy to untie.

As mentioned could use one of the heavy rings from Omega Pacific  or SMC for a little rig plate but I wonder how easy
it would be to untie after a load since one couldn't slid the knot off an open carabiner gate?

I use thread in my line of work and tie it together using the offset overhand to pull it thru the machines because it is quick to do. It rolls apart pretty easily tho.
While 10 lb. nylon thread is not the exact same thing as climbing rope, it gives me pause. I like to use two EDK's next to each other for rappels. Doubt I will find much use for that knot
in anchors otherwise.