Question: lead belaying kids

My 9yo son just started lead climbing, and I'm struggling with soft catches. I'm 200lbs and almost triple his weight. Simply jumping into the fall is not enough (works fine belaying my wife who's 70lbs lighter than me, but not with my son). I don't feel comfortable letting a little rope slip through. I tried pressing down on the rope with my left hand, but that has minimal effect. The only thing that worked for me was to stand ~10-12ft from the wall and when he falls, I'd sprint into the wall then hop up the wall. Even though this works, it feels wrong being so far from the wall. My wife is 130lb and doesn't have to do much to give him a soft catch. If anyone has any experience lead belaying very small children who are 1/3 your weight, I'd love to get some tips on what you do. Thx

Primarily climb indoors

I've been in belay situations that demanded me taking a hop forward (just this past Sunday, actually), versus the ideal 'vertical trajectory towards the first fall protection placement'. Static belays can cause accidents. They don't get taken seriously enough. Old salts are stuck in their old ways, and it's at the top of my list of dumbest concepts I can think of. I've had a couple sessions ruined by ignorant folks that would've, otherwise, been very fun.

A 'soft catch' is a luxury nicety.  What kind of boy are you raising? 

Get a stretchier rope.

FourT6and2 ... wrote: Get a stretchier rope.

That was my thought too.

Might take some out-of-the-box thinking to get a good ratio of kid weight to stretch-i-ness.  And the right rope may not be "street legal" at the gym (e.g., consider other than single-y rated ropes).  Probably warrants a belay device suitable for skinnier ropes.  And it may be a one-way thing:  Rocky could lead belay the little guy on it but, say, his wife could not lead belay him.  Still, yeah, it could work.

Another thought - especially if you (Rocky) want to "go by the book" - is to talk to the gym staff, especially if they have a coach for a kids' team.  See if someone who works with young kids lead climbing has a recommendation(s).

Make that kid wear a 40lb climbing vest, haha.  I think this rule should apply to all kids, mostly to shelter my fragile ego when I see little kids crushing grades way higher than I can climb.

If you jump at the wrong time the kid will get spiked into the wall pretty hard.

Lead falling is hard times for the leader.   Weight differences aside, it's not supposed to be like landing in cotton candy.

You should rethink letting some rope slide through.  Use an ATC and practice in a controlled environment.

Also, a 9 year old can climb on a half rope (maybe even a twin?) like it's a single.  They're a lot stretchier.  You can read more about that here:

​Ideal and Minimal Rope Diameter for Lead Climbing -- Stack Exchange​​​

"Since Half ropes pass the same drop test as Single ropes, but with a 55kg rather than 80kg mass, such ropes appear to provide as much safety for a 55kg climber (including gear) as does a Single rope for an 80kg climber. As stated at the beginning of this post fall rating is not the only concern, but it is unlikely that a Half rope is cut more easily by a 55kg climber than a Single is by an 80kg climber as the PSI (weight over area) is the same. Further, as described by the Mammut representative (above) a robust Half rope like the Genesis has a much more burly sheath than a skinny single like the Serenity. "

Rocky Bear wrote: The only thing that worked for me was to stand ~10-12ft from the wall and when he falls, I'd sprint into the wall then hop up the wall. Even though this works, it feels wrong being so far from the wall. 

I haven't been in your situation but before I read that you've tried this (standing way back and moving in fast when he falls), I was thinking this would be about the best option. Hopping/jumping works well with a closer weight difference between belayer and climber but the difference you two have is way too much for a hop (as you've found.) Are you using a Gri Gri for belaying? If so, if your gym allows ATC tube-style belay devices, and you're comfortable using one, those do give some rope slippage naturally which could help a bit. 

Rocky,

Are you willing to buy a new rope and maybe a dedicated belay device for your son's leads?  Would you like recommendations from MP users for a specific rope & belay device?   Any gym requirements for those of which we should be aware?

Such recommendations would definitely come with the usual disclaimer that we are all mostly just a bunch of non-professionals who could get it wrong.

And part of the your answer includes whether you are willing to spend the coin even if he decides it is not for him in the next few months or so.  Ropes have a life that is quite a bit longer as you probably know.

Kids are made of rubber, throw a helmet on him and use a newer rope with a lot of elongation... "soft catches" don't really work terribly well if there's a massive weight difference.

Yeah if all goes well it's a smooth experience.  You have incredibly high standards for the belayer.  Sounds nerve wracking.

Thanks for the tips guys. I promised my wife we'd always use an ABD with our son, so tubers are out. I looked into some half ropes over xmas, but my grigri isn't rated too go that thin. I'm always up for gear recommendations. I'm not aware of any gym restrictions, but I'd assume they'd allow anything short of hip belaying. 

Pre-breaking with a gloved hand sounds interesting. I've tried a lesser version of that by pressing down on the rope with my left hand, but maybe I'll try to grab it and arrest the fall as much as I can before it hits my device. I doubt I'm strong enough to pull it off, but we'll see. Start with a small fall to test it out. 

Standing far away and sprinting in has been working for us so I guess I can keep doing that despite how ridiculous it looks. My wife said she overheard one person saying "he's way too far away from the wall". I'm new to lead belaying, so I just hate to look foolish in front of people. 

The Revo gives a soft catch.

{EDIT} I wanted to elaborate on this - the Revo does not lock right away like a grigri - it bites down harder on the rope the faster the rope is going through it, stopping at a certain speed. You dont have to let it do that, if you hold the brake strand its just like an ATC. When my wife wants to give me a soft catch she just lets the rope go through it and its amazingly soft. I've had people come up to us after watching me fall and comment on how perfect the catch was, how I just slowed to a stop.

The bad news about the device - it sucks paying out slack quickly. Contrary to the videos and reviews on the net, it will easily lock up when paying slack too quickly, and it does not release easily. My wife has still not mastered the device after using it for several months, and sometimes it just absolutely ruins a redpoint attempt. 

Rocky Bear wrote: Thanks for the tips guys. I promised my wife we'd always use an ABD with our son, so tubers are out. I looked into some half ropes over xmas, but my grigri isn't rated too go that thin. I'm always up for gear recommendations. I'm not aware of any gym restrictions, but I'd assume they'd allow anything short of hip belaying.

Pre-breaking with a gloved hand sounds interesting. I've tried a lesser version of that by pressing down on the rope with my left hand, but maybe I'll try to grab it and arrest the fall as much as I can before it hits my device. I doubt I'm strong enough to pull it off, but we'll see. Start with a small fall to test it out.

Standing far away and sprinting in has been working for us so I guess I can keep doing that despite how ridiculous it looks. My wife said she overheard one person saying "he's way too far away from the wall". I'm new to lead belaying, so I just hate to look foolish in front of people. 

Grabbing the climber’s rope with your left hand trying to arrest the fall is a bad idea. It defeats the camming action on your ABD; at best you arrest the fall with your left hand, making it pointless to dogmatically stick to using one, at worst dropping your son to the ground. People have been dropped when their belayers accidentally grab this strand during a fall. If you are thinking of doing this, it sounds like you don’t want the ABD to do the catching, so why not switch to an ATC? It’s much safer than what you’re suggesting. You said earlier you’re not comfortable letting rope slide through - learn how to do this safely with an ATC and practice until you are comfortable. Grigris are a great tool, but not the right tool for every situation. You’re better off using an ATC correctly than a Grigri with an incorrect method that causes a known failure mode. 

In a gym, with bolts, (outside with gear there are additional reasons) the main reason you “shouldn’t” stand too far from the wall while belaying is so you don’t get pulled toward the wall when your climber takes a fall, creating a longer overall fall distance for the climber and potentially a startled belayer who messes up their belay right at the worst moment. This isn’t an issue with your weight difference. As long as you’re not standing somewhere else you shouldn’t, like in the path of another belayer or directly under another climber, it should be fine. 

Be aware of what you’re trying to do and when it makes sense, and when it doesn’t. Like a grigri, a soft catch is a tool that is sometimes great and other times completely wrong. Soft catches are great, until they’re the reason you break your foot on a ledge or deck entirely. 

The Revo is what I use in our gym where an ABD is required for lead belay.  It does feel "racier" than other ABD devices I have tried ... which implies to me that softer catches are possible with it. Some combination of the Revo with a skinny rope could be good.

On the other hand, the Revo is rated for rope diameters down to 8.5mm which is in the realm of today's half-/twin-rated ropes.  For skinnier ropes, there may not be enough friction between rope and wheel and / or brake mechanism to sufficiently activate the assisted braking at the advertised threshold. And, with skinnier ropes, it gets harder to catch a fall with just brake-hand grip.

The Mammut Smart Alpine has a size that is rated down to 7.5mm diameter ropes.

Em Cos wrote:

Grabbing the climber’s rope with your left hand trying to arrest the fall is a bad idea. It defeats the camming action on your ABD; at best you arrest the fall with your left hand, making it pointless to dogmatically stick to using one, at worst dropping your son to the ground. People have been dropped when their belayers accidentally grab this strand during a fall. 

Thanks for this advice. I won't try this method and just stick to the running in method. If we lead outdoors it'll just be my wife belaying until he gets bigger and/or I get smaller.

Bill, what are your thoughts on the mammut alpine smart? Revo looked interesting, but if it struggles paying out slack, then it's a no go. 

Rocky Bear wrote: Bill, what are your thoughts on the mammut alpine smart? Revo looked interesting, but if it struggles paying out slack, then it's a no go. 

Like most belay devices, the Revo feed is a little rope-diameter dependent.  Still, I suspect it is great for paying out slack for the diameters of most gym ropes used today.

The Revo spec say it's good to up to 11 mm.  But a couple of my belayers struggled (tiresomely) to feed with a 10.4 mm rope.  Perhaps there is also a biner dependency mixed in in that upper range?

My partner and I now use a 10.2 mm rope with the Revo and it works great.  I believe any lead rope below that diameter will feed well; though stiffer ropes could still be difficult.  Perhaps others here have opinions on that.

I did find one issue with feeding for lead belays.  Fast brake-hand movements tend to also be exaggerated  in their arc.  So, initially, my brake hand would sometimes knock an "ear" of the Revo upward and cause it to lock.  Not fun for the leader trying to clip.  But I've trained myself to keep my hands farther away from the Revo. And feeding has not been a problem since.

I have no real experience with the mammut alpine smart to convey, sorry.

Edit: My partner and I do use belay gloves with the Revo.  They 'tame' some of that race-i-ness I mentioned, especially when lowering.

The pre-braking thing works great.  Until my son was ~12 or so I'd keep a couple feet of slack in front of the grigri in a gloved (!!!!!) hand.  When he'd fall, I just caught him with the glove and let the rope slide through a bit.  GriGri was just there as a backup and it took a hell of a hard fall for me not to do the whole thing with the glove.  I have an extremely hard time imagining you'd be able to defeat the grigri cam and cause an accident this way with a 70lb kid on the other end unless you're not holding the brake strand...

As they get heavier, you can a back up from the first bolt to add a bit of friction to make the gloved hand catch easier and to put extra rope into the system to lower the effective fall factor.  Walk into the fall to soften it as you do now.